How Do You Say Success in Spanglish?
The path to success isn’t paved for people of color. Join me as I sit down with individuals who share their stories as we learn how to say Success in Spanglish.
How Do You Say Success in Spanglish?
Amplifying Voices in the Quest for Inclusive Education - Dr. Raul Fernandez
Dr. Raul Fernandez is a Senior Lecturer at Boston University, where he studies, writes, and teaches about inequities in education. He is also Chair of the Racial Imbalance Advisory Council, where he advises the Mass. Commissioner of Education and Board of Education on school (de)segregation in public schools in the Commonwealth.
In the last few years alone, Dr. Fernandez wrote a piece that helped topple a monument to white supremacy, created a film series that engaged thousands of participants in challenging dialogues, and trained thousands more in equitable policymaking at institutions in the US and abroad.
Dr. Fernandez also served as a member of Brookline Select Board – the first Latinx person elected to that position. During his time there he created a working group to support public housing residents, a Racial Equity Advancement Fund, and a task force to reimagine public safety.
Dr. Fernandez is also the Policy Chair on the board of Amplify Latinx, which seeks to build economic and political power for Latinos in Massachusetts, and a board member of Commonwealth Kitchen, which supports women and people of color in starting food businesses. He is also the Founding Executive Director of Brookline for Racial Justice & Equity, where he lives with his family in Brookline, Massachusetts.
Summary:
From Spanish Harlem to the halls of academia, Dr. Raul Fernandez joins us, sharing his remarkable story that embodies the transformative impact of education on individual lives and broader communities. As we trace his path from a gifted program in the South Bronx to influential roles in Massachusetts policy-making and beyond, you'll witness the unwavering dedication of an advocate for equitable education. Dr. Fernandez reveals the profound ways in which his work—from the Brookline Select Board to Amplify Latinx—breaks down systemic barriers and amplifies minority voices, all while keeping a tight focus on the power of community.
Embarking on a candid conversation, we unpack the complexities of identity development and the importance of finding one's community, especially within the university setting. Our journey with Dr. Fernandez highlights the emotional challenges of navigating college during 9/11, the pivotal role of student activism in shaping educational policy, and the sobering realities of college debt and economic disparities faced by graduates. As a beacon of hope, we celebrate the grassroots efforts of Latino students at Boston University, acknowledging the importance of recognizing their achievements against the backdrop of a society that too often overlooks their contributions.
Wrapping up the episode, Dr. Fernandez offers a critical lens on deeper societal issues, from the urgent need for affordable childcare and fair wages to the impact of state policies on societal dynamics. Our dialogue shifts towards understanding the collective nature of success, emphasizing that behind every achievement lies a network of support. Join us for this powerful conversation that not only honors Dr. Fernandez’s commitment to making a difference but also calls each of us to action in the
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Intro Song: Regaeton Pop - Denbow Ambiance
This is Raul Lopez, and you're listening to. How Do you Save Success in Spanglish? The path to success isn't easy For minorities and people of color. Many attempt this journey with little to no guidance. Join me as I sit down with individuals who share their stories of perseverance so that together we can learn how to say success in Spanglish what's good, mi gente, it's your boy, Raul, Welcome back.
Raul Lopez:This is how Do you Say Success in Spanglish Today. My guest is Dr Raul Fernandez. How's it going, Raul? How you doing? What's up? Good to see you, brother. Hey, good to see you too, bro. As always, it's going to be really weird talking to someone else who's a Raul, so I'm not used to calling other people Raul all the time, so this is going to be fun. Raul is a longtime friend of mine. I always appreciate he's one of my fraternity brothers as well, so I'm so glad you're able to get on the show. So just for a little Background on Raul, Dr Raul Fernandez is a senior lecturer at Boston University, where he studies, writes and teaches about inequalities in education.
Raul Lopez:He is also chair of the Racial Imbalance Advisory Council, where he advises the Mass Commissioner of Education and Board of Education on school desegregation in public schools in the Commonwealth. Dr Fernandez wrote a piece that helped topple the monument to white supremacy, created a film series that engaged thousands of participants in challenging dialogues and trained thousands more in equitable policymaking at institutions in the US and abroad. Dr Fernandez also served as a member of Brookline Select Board, the first Latinx person elected to that position. During his time there, he created a working group to support public housing residents, a racial equity advancement fund and a task force to reimagine public safety. Dr Fernandez is also the policy chair on the board of Amplify Latinx, which seeks to build economic and political power for Latinos in Massachusetts, and a board member of Commonwealth Kitchen, which supports women and people of color in starting food businesses. He is also the founding executive director of Brookline for Racial Justice and Equity, where he lives with his family in Brookline, Massachusetts, and he's also a dad raising a beautiful daughter and a loving husband.
Raul Lopez:So there's nothing you don't do. Nice, nice, bro. So you know obviously, very impressive resume. You've accomplished so much and I'm glad I was there to see a lot of the journey that you've been through. But the Mercer world doesn't know much about you, so I guess, to kind of start off, tell me. You know who is Raul Fernandez.
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, I'm just a man standing in front of another man doing a podcast, no I you know, but you know my work, my life is really centered around equity, particularly racial equity. I grew up in a barrio in Spanish Harlem and then later on in the South Bronx and you know, come from a family of transit workers. My father worked at first cleaning the cars, the train cars, at night and then later on was a conductor and then what they then called a motorman, which is now a train operator, which is what my sister does and then later on worked in an office.
Raul Fernandez:My mother for her you know, my whole life had been a bus mechanic working on the air conditioning units on the on the city buses, and so you know that was a big part of my life. Growing up is just, you know, spending time seeing working people like doing their thing, going after school, doing my homework in the break room, at the train yard or the bus depot, and, you know, sort of really seeing my family lift itself up through these good union jobs that they were able to able to get. But I started off really, you know, I remember us being on public assistance, living in public housing for a while and and going to typically under resourced public schools and sort of my whole story is about having an opportunity that led to another, that led to another, that led to where I am right now, and it's the reason why I focus on education right now because I know what it's done for me and what it does for so many other people.
Raul Fernandez:So I'm happy to get more into that, but you know that that, for me, is what I think about all the time is how we can use education as a tool to help people lift themselves up.
Raul Lopez:Nice, and what was that opportunity you talk about?
Raul Fernandez:So when I was four years old. I actually was recommended for this talented, gifted program in New York by this teacher, Miss Friedlander, and who had to decide who among the four-year-olds in her class she was going to recommend for this program. You know I have a three-year-old right now. I've been around four-year-olds. I can't tell you which one's got promise and which one doesn't.
Raul Lopez:In fact nobody really can.
Raul Fernandez:I mean they all have promise is the truth, but some get picked for this program and others don't.
Raul Fernandez:I get into the talent gifted program that gets me to later on Manhattan East, which is an exam middle school, and then Bronx Science an exam high school, all public schools and then ultimately to Boston University. If I hadn't gone down that track, I would have gone to my neighborhood schools by the time I'm in high school. I was living over by Stevenson High School, stevo, at the time. It's actually where Big Pun went, but it was a school that was only graduating at the time. Three out of every 10 students that went there that's 30% graduation rate, nevermind going on to places like BU. Meanwhile, bronx Science is graduating. Everybody that went there 99 to 100% of the students graduate and go on to places like BU or even better. So, like you know, that's the difference that having that kind of opportunity can make, and we've seen. It's now 40 years later and we still do the same things. We still have these talented and gifted programs. We still, you know, hoard resources and provide them to some students.
Raul Fernandez:You know we water those flowers and we don't water, other flowers, and then I don't know we sit around wondering why some are able to succeed and others aren't. Right, and it's just you know, that's probably the most troubling thing is that you got people like me telling my story and so many other folks telling their stories, and it seems we still haven't learned the lessons yet.
Raul Lopez:No, it's true, because sometimes you never know, especially as a kid, and it's probably something the same thing with you. You probably didn't. I don't know if you recognized it, maybe when you were at the time, that I was doing something special. Maybe you're walking by, like you said, these other schools, and you're realizing I could have been there, but I'm on this path. I mean, did you ever notice the differences early on, or was that more of a kind of reflective thing?
Raul Fernandez:Well, I mean, you know, like you know, I go off to these other schools, but I still come back to the same neighborhood and by the time I went to high school I went to college. I don't know anybody else in my neighborhood that went to college. Doesn't mean nobody did, but I'm telling you anybody I knew in my neighborhood a few years before me or even years after me.
Raul Fernandez:I don't know anyone that went to college, right, and so you recognize that there's. You know, I'm living this different, this different life, having these different experiences in school than I am at home, and and yeah, there's that sense of dissonance, like between the two. But but you know, I think I can, I can better articulate today what those differences are, but I certainly felt them at the time, yeah, and you, not just you, I think.
Raul Lopez:We've had other people too who have talked about the difference a small opportunity can make, where you know you might not recognize what the differences would be, but the fact that you were able to get one of those has really kind of pinpointed you into a different trajectory. And you know, since you kind of had this opportunity, you know, did you feel, you know when you did get to college, that this, yes, you got to college and that's helped you get there, but did you feel like it was still enough to help you out when you were in college, or were you still struggling, or did you have any struggles in college?
Raul Fernandez:Still struggling in college too. So I had applied at the time. I wanted to be an engineer, like I wanted to build things like bridges and stuff like that and I applied to. Actually I applied to the schools that my guidance counselor told me to apply to. So you to be an engineer, you apply. There was five schools I applied to, that was it. One of them was bu, um bu. I got into and they actually gave me the most money, so it didn't. I didn't particularly like boston when I visited, but that's where we're going. And um look at you, yeah, but I
Raul Fernandez:got the acceptance letter and it was, instead of being an acceptance to the college of engineering, it was an acceptance to the science and engineering program, which I'd never heard of and didn't apply to.
Raul Fernandez:But it turns out that was a bridge program and it was a two-year program. You do well enough there and then you can get into the real college of engineering. Um, but when I actually started going to the classes, I noticed that, like that's where all the Black and Latino kids that were into STEM were, and we were all in the same place, and it wasn't long before, like, people started dropping out because it was, whereas, like, some bridge programs, if they're done right, are intended to, like, help you succeed or lift you up. This was, like really felt like it was intended to weed people out, and at some point I didn't want to leave BU, but I didn't want to be in that program anymore and I went to talk to the director about it because I wanted to be in comm communications, which is what I ultimately graduated with. But I had to get his signature to leave the program and he told me we don't like people coming in the back door of the university and then deciding they want to be somewhere else.
Raul Lopez:Oh wow, oh yeah, yeah, how did that make you feel?
Raul Fernandez:Oh, I was enraged, I was so upset. I literally this guy his name was Chip, I literally cursed him out like hard.
Raul Lopez:I mean I just, like slew of expletives.
Raul Fernandez:I don't even remember what I said, but it was bad. And then at the end of it I said something to the effect of do you really want a fucking kid like me in your fucking stupid program? And he said no, I don't. And then he signed the paper and he released me. I was like good, but it was hard it was. It was like getting acclimated to this overwhelmingly white environment was difficult. I remember being on an orientation tour where they were like so excited because they would just won a national championship. But then they were like in hockey and I was like damn, this place is white.
Raul Fernandez:But then they were like in hockey and I was like, damn, this place is white, and like, and you know, it's harder in a big university like that to find your people, which is why, when you know, I found like Latinos Unidos, which was one of the Latino students that was around at the time, and and also, ultimately, the fraternity Fiat Alpha, like that, I found like a place where I can have support, because I didn't feel like I was getting it from the administration, I didn't feel like I was getting it from faculty. Um, or anybody else.
Raul Fernandez:Uh, in, and having that peer support is probably what kept me around at BU, including when, when I was switching over, I had to take a semester off, um, and I and I also had to figure out how to pay for college. Because, you know, my father said I sent you to be an engineer, if you want to be something else, you can pay for it. And he wasn't bluffing.
Raul Fernandez:He just stopped paying for college. That was it, it was done. And so you know, now I have like this path, I want to go on. I know I want to be in the College of Communication. I feel good about that.
Raul Fernandez:But, Angela, the advisor at comms, telling me I can't get in with my grades from engineering. I said what does that have to do with anything? I suck at engineering Doesn't mean I'll suck at communications. And so she's saying I'm not going to get in, but I'm going to still try anyway. And I got nowhere to live now because I got no money and thankfully it was actually brothers that put me up on a couch for a semester and let me, you know, get, get my funds together. I worked as a security guard down downtown on milk street, um early in the morning.
Raul Fernandez:I got the first tee every morning like five, four or five, I don't even know what time early before the sun rose and.
Raul Lopez:I and.
Raul Fernandez:I do that all day and make some money. And then found my way back into college, took on tons of loans, which which, um thanks, biden Um.
Raul Lopez:I'm done with right now.
Raul Fernandez:I ended up getting the public service loan forgiveness finally, but it was, it was I mean it was so many, so much in loans.
Raul Lopez:I thought I was going to die with those um and pass them on to somebody else, I suppose.
Raul Fernandez:But, um, but that's, that's what it was it was. It was really really hard, um, to find my way through and I did not feel like I had the kind of supports that that people deserve.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, and you know you mentioned the fraternity and the Latinos and Nidos, and I just want to mention that you were one of the founders for our chapter at Boston university. And so did you feel at the time that and I know we'll go, we'll come back later about some of the stuff you've you've done at Boston University but did you also feel at the time that when you were there, that there was there was something missing and that's why you wanted to kind of create something and be more involved with something?
Raul Fernandez:I felt like there was something missing from me right, I wasn't because when the fraternity started I was, I was still in my freshman year, right, so I was, and we had guys that were were seniors, juniors, sophomores, and then a couple of us, two of us that were, um, that were in our first year, and so we were really, I think, responding to what the other guys were creating and and it felt like you know, when you, you know in an environment where you feel so out of place, where you feel so disconnected, so unsupported.
Raul Fernandez:To see, in particular, like these men coming together and saying like we're going to create something positive and supportive where and also do more for our community on and off campus, like that just felt like really right to me and kind of what I needed. So you know, I'm a first year student at BU. I'm still selfish at that point I'm not necessarily thinking about how much I'm going to, you know, contribute and this, and that it's more like what do I need? And this is one of the things I needed.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, and I mean I'm sure, because of the fact that a lot of us roll in the same type of group, that you know your needs also, you know reflected on the needs of a lot of other people. So inadvertently, your self-pity still kind of helped out with a lot of other people moving forward.
Raul Fernandez:So yeah, Well, you recognize that, like, these kinds of spaces are so important that if they, if they didn't exist, someone would try to create them tomorrow, right, so there's been Latinosinos unidos, there was mecha, they merged to form alianza latina, but now there's all these other kinds of latin organizations at bu2 and it's like sort of like an ecosystem of of support and more faculty and staff engaging and supporting those students. It's just, it's so critically important to have those kinds of spaces. I think sometimes people think of, in terms of like racial identity, people as like finished products. These students are Black and these students are Latino and these students are whatever.
Raul Fernandez:But really, in terms of like racial identity, development, development, all people, I'm sure, but especially younger people, are incomplete and they're still forming their own identity as it relates to race and policy and just living in the world. So I always say I came to BU, puerto Rican and I left Latino and now I really identify as a person of color. So, even like, my conception of self is broadened out further and who I see myself in community with, like Puerto Rican, very limited Latino, much broader people of color, even broader than that, right, who you see yourself as in others can change over time and for so many of us we're still trying to figure out like who we are in our own Latinidad, or like our own, like race, our own ethnicity, our own, you know, whatever it is, and having other people around us, even if it's not a program that's specifically, you know, designed to work us through whatever like having that space is so important it Um?
Raul Fernandez:it definitely was for me.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, definitely, definitely, and and so obviously you do eventually graduate um from Boston university in communications. You know what was your. What was your next step after that? Um working in the field.
Raul Fernandez:You know I ultimately ended up working in um at a pr firm called lowest pollen partners. That was high-tech pr. I remember the big client at the time was ibm. This is when they had like lotus as a, as a, as a product, if you remember that and um and I was working there just doing, doing what you do, uh, promoting stuff.
Raul Fernandez:I didn't fully understand, to be honest, with you working with like high tech journals and stuff like that. But I graduated in 2000 and something happened the very next year, that September, which was 9-11. And you know, interestingly at the time, when that happened, I was again living on a couch with brothers.
Raul Fernandez:I was supposed to have moved in somewhere in september of that year and it didn't work out. So I I had money, but I didn't have a place to live. Guys put me up again, and so I remember when, when 9-11 happened, but after that, basically, the the dot-com bubble had already burst.
Raul Fernandez:At that point, if you remember dot-com, dot-com and all that kind of stuff, and so a lot of PR firms were in trouble already. In fact, my firm had already had a round of layoffs, and in that round of layoffs I actually got promoted to somebody else's job, who got laid off because I was cheaper. It put me in that person's job, but then after 9-11, the economy really tanked and the PR firm basically closed up shop. They kept a few people on in case there might be new business in the future, but the rest of us all got laid off at that point and there were really no jobs to be had for a while. And so I was getting these unemployment checks and one of the brothers at some point says hey, I'm down here in Miami.
Raul Fernandez:We have a three bedroom apartment, only two of us living in it. If you want to'm down here in miami, we have a three-bedroom apartment, only two of us living in it. If you want to come down here, ride it out for a while like come through.
Raul Fernandez:I was like that, I'm out really it was, if you worked in pr, like you could not find a job. At that point it was like it was just impossible and so um, and so I went down there and you know that became like about three, almost four years of my life living in Miami and I started.
Raul Fernandez:I started working, I got a graduate degree down there and just you know lived down there for a while, worked in communication at Barrett University, before I finally made my way back up north at Northeastern University and then ultimately, bu, where I've been for the last 16. Was it 16 years now? Oh, 18 years now.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, when did you come back up to Boston from sunny Miami?
Raul Fernandez:I was having a good time in Miami, but it didn't feel like a serious place to me. To be honest, I remember lots of just conversation about Britney Spears, but not much else, and she was a singer, you may remember at the time, Anyway, but it was. I just remember feeling like disconnected from the real world living down there.
Raul Fernandez:I mean, I was literally living on South Beach at some point with another brother and it just felt like not real to me and I think I wanted to get back up north seasons and all that kind of stuff.
Raul Lopez:Nice, and then you said you went to Northeastern.
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, I worked at Northeastern for a year in the PR department there, which was a hot mess.
Raul Fernandez:But, yeah, I came up to that job and it was, let's say, I'd been there a year. I've been there a year and at some point the place where I worked at BU, the Howard Thurman Center, the assistant director the first ever assistant director was leaving and she actually had lived on my floor freshman year at BU, Warren Towers and she said, hey, Raul, I'm leaving this job, but I think you'd be good for it. And it wasn't like we were like very close, we didn't like hang out or anything, but she's like I think you'd be good for this job and I was like, oh, let me take a look at it and it was interesting and I applied.
Raul Fernandez:It was basically this community space really a community space that really attracted a lot of students of color to it but wasn't specifically only for students of color and I applied and ended up getting hired for the job and it was.
Raul Lopez:It was one of the best, best jobs I've ever had and did that change your trajectory a bit like, are you doing a lot of pr stuff?
Raul Fernandez:yeah, I basically left pr behind at that point. I mean, you still have calm skills, which which benefit in different ways, but I left it behind at that point I had, you know, when I was working in pr.
Raul Fernandez:I had some bad experiences in northeastern where they, you know, at some point tried to get me to do PR for this report, which was like, I mean, I've seen that I guess I've seen worse science. That was done ostensibly by this faculty member from Northeastern, but it was funded by the Center for Immigration Studies, which bills itself as nonpartisan, but every piece of research they've ever put out is that immigrants are terrible. They're just horrible. They're bad for the economy. Just immigrants are bad. And so they're just a really well-known BS think tank that just tries to popularize research about immigrants being terrible. And so I was really surprised that we were even going to promote this thing, and so I told them that I wouldn't do it, that it was junk science. It was no new research. They just took existing data and crunched it in a certain way that told the story they wanted to tell.
Raul Fernandez:crunched in a certain way that was that that told the story they wanted to tell and, um, and I was told that I had to do it anyway and that I should think about what it meant for my career and all that kind of stuff. And maybe I should, I should sleep on it, and I just told him I could sleep on it if you want. I'm just happy to give you the same answer tomorrow, but I'm not doing it and uh, I think from that point on they were like well, he's not a team player, all that kind of stuff.
Raul Fernandez:But from my perspective it was you know, you gotta, you gotta have some kind of you know, when it comes to your values and things like that, you gotta have some kind of line that you know cross and you know it's a real shame that they tried to push me past that line even after I made it clear that it was there. But so wasn't long for that job. Those folks were bad business, you know. I don't know that that department's even improved since then. It's been many years, you know.
Raul Fernandez:But I definitely was like I got to get out of here and it just happened that the BU opportunity came up, yeah, and so the Howard Thurman Center that you worked at, you know.
Raul Lopez:Can you tell me a little bit about what that was and what it meant, because you said it was very? It attracted a lot of people of color and it kind of evolved with time, I think as well. So can you tell me a little bit about that?
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, it's the Howard Thurman Center for Common Ground. It I mean just a wonderful space it was.
Raul Fernandez:I mean now it's a different, it's in a different location, different vibe, I don't really know as much about it now, but at the time it was like a living room in the campus understand or make space for people to engage in their own identity development. And so, whereas Northeastern, for instance, has long had an African-American center, a John D O'Brien center, latino Student Cultural Center, asian-american center and other spaces like that, bu never has and still does to this day. Bu finally opened its first center for LGBTQ students, after decades of students sort of agitating and advocating for such a space but have never had a space like that for folks of color.
Raul Fernandez:The closest thing that existed was the Howard Thurman Center, and so, even though it was never in any way, you can't find anything in the mission statement or anything that says this is for kids of color or whatever. As I mentioned before, these spaces are so important that folks will find a way to make the space where they can.
Raul Fernandez:And so that's exactly what happened at Thurman Center, and so there were many students that came to programs there from all different backgrounds, but you would routinely see Black and Latino students and Asian students spending a lot of time there. When they were just grabbing lunch, they'd come down and eat there. When they were between classes they wanted to study, they would come hang out there, and then there was a lot of programming by student groups that was taking place there too.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, I remember my freshman year, which I think was in 2001, right there in like 9-11. But you're right, you come into college campus. You feel like a small number in a big pond that you're not used to and it's a different ocean for you. And you're just sitting at every dining room table and you're looking I think that person's Latino. Maybe I should, if I can go talk to them. Oh, I see that person. And then you go to these clubs and you go slowly. You start building your thing and having a centralized location for that.
Raul Lopez:really, I think makes a difference for the comfort level, and that comfort level I think makes college less hard. You know, I think when you're not worried about stuff and you're not anxious and you're not, your emotions have a big impact on how you do in college. And when you're feeling more comfortable, they do make a big difference in that. So you know, I remember when the Harvard Thermal, I think it was I was in school when that started and I think you were, I think I was at my tail end when you started working there as well. So we did a lot of stuff there. So it was, it was a good time.
Raul Lopez:But, obviously during this time and you've gone through all this stuff, obviously you're, you go get your PhD as well and I think your, your focus was yeah, so I was um.
Raul Fernandez:So at that point I worked for five years at the howard thurman center and then I switched to go work at student activities to be like their associate director and um, the dean of what was then called the school of education. Now it's called b we lock college of education, human development, um, but the dean there harden coleman who knew?
Raul Fernandez:me through, I don't know, we you know programming, whatever stuff, we did probably do thururman Center, and he was like, have you thought about doing a doctorate? I'm like not really, I don't know, I guess maybe. And he kind of convinced me to do it and and and you know, fortunately, when you work at a university, you get typically some kind of tuition remission that either covers all of or all of or, in the case of BU, most of the cost of getting a degree. And so I was able to work at the university while going, doing part-time um a doctoral program, and it took me about five years um to get that, to get that degree and get it done. Uh, and I'll tell you, I, I was, I was like good, I, you know I was, I was, my trajectory was maybe to be like a student or something like that, and I hadn't been thinking about a doctorate before he brought it up.
Raul Fernandez:But, um, when he, when he did bring it up, the thing that I thought about was actually, um, my mom, who had tried, like had these like starts and stops trying to get a bachelor's degree and just like never could get it done.
Raul Fernandez:I mean, she went to multiple schools multiple times trying to do a class here, do a class there, but never was able to earn that degree. And so for me, I was like this is something that I could do, I have the ability to do it, I have like the privilege to be able to do this, to like earn this degree. It would, it would feel wrong not to do it because I knew I could and I had the personal ability to do it, but also the luxury to do it as well. And so I sort of committed myself to doing it, but sort of in her honor she's still around but like in her honor to be able to give that degree to her, which, you know, because the reason she wasn't able to get her own degree was because she was taking care of us, you know, and like looking after us and also working she was. You know she was doing all the things and you know which made it difficult for her to be able to do that. You know for herself.
Raul Fernandez:And so it was important for me to do that.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, no, I think it's. You know, it's a continual thing. I think that you're talking about where it's like there's been these opportunities that have kind of presented themselves in your life, whether it's a nudge in the direction to, you know, go get your doctorate, or something like that. And I think for a lot of us, the idea of risk in taking those opportunities, you know, especially when you have an opportunity, because there's always, you know, as you go with life, there's always situations where you, I can't go now. I have kids, I have family, I have to do stuff. Can't go now.
Raul Lopez:I have kids, I have family, I have to do stuff and there's good reasons where it might delay you more, but just you know, building the courage to kind of come up and say, yeah, uh, maybe I should take this opportunity and you know, what's the worst that can happen in doing that?
Raul Lopez:I think that's something we, we, we challenge ourselves, you know, as latinos of you know, taking that risk because our family's always you know I always go really risk averse, you know, just go to work, make some money, shut up and be happy with what you have, don't, don't try to do too much, so but that's good man. And so you was your doctorate. Is that when you started doing the education inequalities or that kind of something afterwards?
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, yeah. So it was an education. I mean, my doctorate, like my dissertation, was like about something else. It was, it was it was not unrelated, but it was about student trustees. So students that are on boards of trustees, which is which is not? It's more common in public institutions, less common in private institutions like the? U.
Raul Fernandez:But that what I was trying to understand is like the ways in which students can exercise power on college campuses, um, and you know, I I knew a lot about um student activism and organizing and working through student groups, student government and all that, but this idea that there could be students that sit at the highest level, the biggest decision makers, the people who literally can hire and fire the president, the board of trustees and was trying to understand how they utilize that power. And so I studied student trustees in the UMass system, so across the various different colleges in the UMass system and during periods from the late 60s up until more recently, but including during the time of students trying to get universities to divest from apartheid South Africa, students trying to get universities to divest from apartheid, south africa, um students trying to get universities, in some cases, to like, not invest in athletics and to keep money focused on, uh, on, um, on to the educational mission, to keep tuition from going up, like all the things that, like you know now you know we see how much tuition has skyrocketed and students were trying to trying to stop that from happening. How much our colleges are about things that have nothing to do with learning in some cases and students were trying to stop that. And how much our colleges many of them, bring in so much money and make investments in really problematic ways, and how students are trying to stop that. And you know it's really interesting to study.
Raul Fernandez:But I think also because of my work in administration which really was you sort of got me more focused on the inequities that we see on college campuses. More focused on the inequities that we see on college campuses and then, through my doctoral studies, understanding more of the history of colleges and how they weren't built for for all of us not even most of us and and how we see the legacy of that today, I started digging more and more into that and really have carved that out as as a niche for myself within the world of higher education, and then, even more recently, taking that a step further and thinking through what that looks like through the lens of policy and legislation and how shifts in policy might make our campuses more inclusive and equitable, and so that's been a big focus for me lately.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, it's one of those things where every time you dig a little bit, you always find something else behind it, and it's always something else above, and if you keep climbing that ladder until you get to the top and that's where the big change happens. So I guess, to kind of talk a little bit about some of your expertise, what are some of these inequalities that you see facing students nowadays?
Raul Fernandez:Yeah well, I mean, we've sort of gotten rid of a lot of the prohibitions that used to exist. Right, Like women couldn't go to college. There were quotas on the number of Jewish students that go to college. There were quotas on the number of Jewish students that go to college. There were prohibitions on, certainly, when folks were enslaved, they weren't allowed to engage in education. But even after that there were limits on who could be in college based on race and ethnic identities.
Raul Fernandez:Immigration not, you could afford it, and the truth is that there are at some of the best colleges out there right now, there are young people especially who are getting into those colleges but can't afford to go to them, and that that's still perfectly legal, and that's what we do. Some colleges have stepped up and increased financial aid, especially for people at the lowest income levels. But, but, but. But. That still holds true as well. And then meanwhile, as I said, the rising cost is leading so many more people to go into debt for something that everyone tells them they need.
Raul Fernandez:So if you don't get this degree, you're not going to earn as much money as you know folks that do, or you're not going to have the same opportunities.
Raul Fernandez:And now that, uh, that job that used to require a high school degree, which has requires a bachelor's degree, by the way, the one that requires a bachelor's degree now requires a master's degree, and you just have to, like, keep doing this thing and, um, you know, I think that's a really big issue across the board when you start thinking also about the racial inequities on college campuses, the legacy of exclusion that has sort of created this environment where so many students of color still feel like, not feel like, but clearly understand that these spaces weren't built for them, and that our faculty and even staff still don't reflect the student body today, which is significantly more diverse than it's ever been, and there's need for changes there as well.
Raul Fernandez:And then, on a policy level, you know we have a changing landscape out there. You have the Supreme Court that just undid what we knew as affirmative action, in not a total way, but in a major way, and we have states across the country that are banning what I do, literally the classes I teach. The work that I do here in Boston, I couldn't do in a growing number of states across the country right now, and so you know understanding why that's happening, what the implications are and what we intend to do about it is a really important thing to focus on right now.
Raul Lopez:Yeah yeah, and you touched upon a lot of different things and so you know. But, you know, one of the things that hit hard, I think, was the economic aspect of things, where my dad is an immigrant from Peru truck driver. You know, I knew from the get go that we couldn't afford college. So the only way to get there would be, you know, get good financial aid or take out loans. And when I get to college and I completely mess it all up and screw myself out of most of my financial aid and I'm paying extra classes and doing our stuff and then I, you know, fortunately graduate, but then, you know, then I'm stuck with like $60,000 in debt and the burden of. You know, I'm 20 years out of college and I'm still like man. If I can get rid of these loans, I'd have an extra $600 a month, just you know that's a big chunk of change.
Raul Lopez:You know that. That's a luxury car, that's, that's that's. You know savings, that's a lot of extra money I could be doing with and make good money. You know what I mean. It's so it still hurts, you know.
Raul Fernandez:And well, what's even worse is that there are people out there with the same debt and didn't get the degree. Yeah, so, so a significant portion of that student debt that's out. There are people that took classes, enrolled in programs couldn't finish but it doesn't mean that they don't know that money. They still do and they've they've got nothing to show for it.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, yeah, and, and. So I think you know like I'm big when I talk to like younger kids and generations, like you know, teach the economics of a college degree as well, because we grew up in that Degree is more important than anything. Do whatever you have to do to get a degree. When you get out of college, you're going to make so much money. It's going to be worth it. It's worth loans. You're going to be able to afford everything. This is the pipe dream you're going to have in college, college, college, college, college. Then 9-11 happens and you're making 15 an hour with a bachelor's uh, for the next 15 years before you start making any good money, and your student loans are kicking in.
Raul Fernandez:So it's been a shitty ride, it's a and I can't wait to.
Raul Lopez:You know I don't have any more student loans. I'm looking forward to that day. I think I'll probably like 65 when that happens at this point. But that's awesome, man. You know it's, it's, I'm glad. And you mentioned a lot of stuff about policies and things like that. So you know you are proactive outside of. You know what you do in higher education. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the stuff you do outside and you feel those are important?
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, and some of the stuff are connected to the work. I mean it's all connected, but some of it's directly connected. So in this work on the Racial Imbalance Advisory Council that I chair, we're looking at segregation in Massachusetts schools, which exists still today. This is the 70th anniversary of Brown v Board and our schools are significantly segregated across the country, especially, surprisingly for some, in the Northeast and in Massachusetts. We've been digging into the data. We're going to present a report in June to the Board of Elementary and Secondary Education that shows significant gaps between the experiences and outcomes of students in intensely segregated non-white schools, so schools where the overwhelming percentage of students literally 90% plus of the students are Black and or Latino, compared with intensely segregated white schools where almost all students are white. We're seeing huge gaps related to chronic absenteeism, to test scores, to basically every measure imaginable that the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education tracks and requires that districts send them.
Raul Fernandez:Um, you'd rather, um, certainly rather be an intensive segregated white school than an intensive segregated non-white school by a long shot, uh, and it is, um, I mean, some of it is. It's really, when you think about it, heartbreaking because we know, because we've got a voluntary desegregation program called MECO in Massachusetts where students, if they get in as a lot or if you get in, you could actually leave let's say, the Boston public schools, where you might end up in one of those intensely segregated schools and end up in a different district that's more racially balanced schools and end up in a different district. That's more racially balanced. And we just saw some research come out this year that shows that the kids that actually just get moved they still live in the same neighborhood, by the way.
Raul Fernandez:They just go to a different school, kind of like I did. They just go to a different school that the outcomes for those kids in terms of test scores, in terms of graduation, in terms of getting into college, all of it are significantly better compared with students who also applied to that same program but didn't get it. Um, and so we, we know it ain't the kids, it's the, it's the environment. Um, and unfortunately, for for so many of these kids, they're, they're being placed in environments where, um, the odds are stacked against them in terms of being able to succeed, and it's not just unfortunate, it's unacceptable and, in fact, it's unconstitutional.
Raul Fernandez:And so I wouldn't be surprised after our report comes out if there's not, you know, legal action trying to remedy the problems that we're seeing across the Commonwealth, particularly Boston, springfield, other places like that, and so that's some of the work right there is really trying to draw attention to this issue of segregation. Related to that, there are bills that would attempt to put more teeth into the oversight around issues related to segregated schools, would put more funding toward addressing these issues, and those are the kinds of things that I think after we put this report out and part of the report will be supporting those bills but really getting behind, you know, shifting the legislation so that this isn't allowed to continue with so little engagement.
Raul Fernandez:It's really sad Like we ask questions about like the Board of Elementary and Secondary Education is supposed to send a letter to districts when they're out of compliance with what we have a law called the Racial Imbalance Law that makes it illegal to have the kinds of school systems that we see right now, and we asked in the last 20 years, how many times has the board sent a letter like that to a district? And the answer was zero. And so even the body that's supposed to be doing oversight hasn't been doing the oversight. It's really, it's embarrassing and, like I said, it's not just unfortunate, it's unacceptable, and so that's really important work.
Raul Fernandez:At the local level you mentioned, I'm the executive director of Brookline for Racial Justice and Equity, and so in the community where I live in Brookline, it's a nonprofit organization that's looking to build an informed, motivated and organized constituency around racial justice. But really as a method of policy change, to start to build a constituency that says we need something different here. We need greater access, greater housing affordability, affordability in child care, so that underpaid people, especially people of color, can afford to live here. We need to feel more included, more part of the you know, represented and elected and appointed positions and like their civil rights protections.
Raul Fernandez:And then we need more access to opportunity to. You know, the schools should work as well for us as they do for anyone else, and even in our schools we see big gaps, um, based on black and latino students compared to the white and asian students in our schools. Um, and then also around economic opportunity, um, you know, I was just looking at a report that shows, actually, massachusetts has the biggest gap in income between white and Latino residents, connecticut's second, by the way. Rhode Island's on the list too.
Raul Fernandez:It's actually interesting because a lot of the blue states where you see the gap there, and so addressing those kinds of inequities are really important too but you can.
Raul Lopez:You can see the stark differences. Where it's like, this is providence, everything that's such as providence is still kind of hood, kind of ghetto, kind of poor. And then it just rolls out and gets really white and a lot more money. And I remember we went to go play baseball against barrington, which is one of like the you know the the biggest schools in, uh, one of the richest schools in rhode island, and we go there and we're we're JV, by the way, because I started I didn't play baseball to like my senior year, even though I should.
Raul Lopez:I wanted to since freshman year and I just figured I want to do at least one season before I graduate. And I did baseball. I was JV and JV team. We're wearing the old uniforms from our previous you know whatever varsity stopped wearing. They have holes, they have dirt, they have stains, they're just all beat up. And we get to this jv game and these guys have custom jerseys with their names on it, with fitted hats with their names on the back of the hats and I'm like we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose, we're gonna do that. We did, we got, we got our asses, but it's like, you know, but it was like that's that. That was a prime example of what you're talking about on a baseball field, let alone, like you know, in society and stuff like that, where it's just, you know, we're 30 miles away and it's a completely different world, you know.
Raul Fernandez:Yep absolutely.
Raul Lopez:And so you obviously you're a lecturer too, and you know when you're teaching. You know what are some of the things you talk about when you teach with your students. Yeah, you know what are some of the things you talk about when you teach with your students.
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, well, I think, really understanding the interplay between so I teach a couple of courses, one on what's called diversity and justice in education, around social justice and ed, another one on school segregation, and then others that are about more like the history of higher education or current issues in higher education, those kinds of things and really understanding the interplay between activism, advocacy, like those who want to push for greater equity in education the interplay between that and also policy legislation, like how do you actually get it done, what are the headwinds, what are the tailwinds, what supports you have, but also what's working against you, and then also what the trends are out there.
Raul Fernandez:So recently I did a presentation that they came out of some research which was looking at the impact of these policies that are proliferating across all these different states Florida, texas, oklahoma, idaho, everywhere that are like banning books and DEI and also anti-trans, all this stuff, right, and I was trying to understand, like where it's coming from now. Right, because it's not like folks all of a sudden decided they didn't like this stuff but now it's really starting to happen and what led to that.
Raul Fernandez:But in understanding that, I came across the voter registration statistics for Florida, and Florida is a state that actually you can see when people register to vote, they have to declare a party. They can declare Republican, democrat, unenrolled, independent, rather, and probably some other parties, but those are the ones that are the most popular and what we're able to see over time is like how those numbers have changed. And so you know I was talking with our students about is you know? You get Ron DeSantis coming into office in 2019, right, the governor there and then you have COVID hitting in 2020. And one of the things Ron DeSantis did in COVID he said don't worry about vaccines, don't worry about masks, everybody's going to school. Like it was crazy right.
Raul Fernandez:But you know what? People loved it and massive amounts of people moved to Florida because they wanted their kids in school, because they didn't want, they wanted to be able to go to nightclub.
Raul Fernandez:They wanted to be able to not wear a mask, not get a vaccine, all that kind of stuff. What we start to see is a shifting of the registered voters away from Democrats, which had a quarter million vote advantage voter advantage when he got elected and then after that, really starts to sort of eat away at that. Then comes 2021, where he starts his campaign against woke and starts all the don't say gay bill and all the other bills that that everybody probably knows about at this point. And what's happening? There is more people love that and I'm moving to florida. At the same time, there's a lot of people who vote democrat that are leaving florida because they don't want to live like that right, and then also the stuff you know, the roe v wade decision, abortion, and people are.
Raul Fernandez:I'm out of here, and so we're at the point now where, before he took office, or even when he took office, democrats had a quarter million dollar voter advantage.
Raul Fernandez:Now Republicans have a million person registered voter advantage, and which has significantly changed Florida from a swing state, which Obama won and then Trump won, significantly change florida from a swing state, which obama won and then trump won, to, uh, really a red state. I mean it's just properly red state at this point, and I think those numbers are going to go even up for republicans as more people register before the election. So, um, understanding the implication of that, um of of of that, that playbook I don't think ron desantis is some genius. That's like here's what I'm going to do. Oh, kovat's coming, let me do this and then I'm gonna start doing these.
Raul Fernandez:I think he's just doing things right but other people watch that and they say, wow, that's really seems to be working. Like you can do crazy things like this and still be in office. In fact, if you're crazy enough, then people will leave who don't like it, people will move there who love it and you actually solidify your power. See the exact same thing happening in Texas right now. Texas was almost purple. It was always red, but it was almost purple. There's more Latinos than anybody else who live in Texas right now. A lot of them are Republicans, though, and we don't know enough about Texas data because they don't actually keep their voter registration in the same way, but it almost felt like Texas might go blue at some point. I don't know about that anymore.
Raul Fernandez:Greg Abbott's basically run the same plays and we see the same thing happening, and so nationally, we're starting to see that in recent memory going back to the civil rights era, certainly but in recent memory I don't know that it's been this different to live in a state in a long time, meaning the difference between what rights you have access to, what books you have access to, what kind of health care you have access to, is significantly I mean, it's a significant difference between Massachusetts and Florida and in many other states. Right, it's just significantly different and because of that and because of these laws have been passed by state legislatures in which power has become concentrated, meaning even if the governor goes away or just decides not to run again, somebody else becomes governor. In order to change these laws, you need the legislature to change the laws, and that's unlikely to happen anytime soon and there will be challenges to these laws, but they're going to end up at the Supreme Court and we know what that Supreme Court looks like, which means that these differences in living in this state versus that state are going to be they're going to persist for a very long time and I think are going to lead. They're going to persist for a very long time and I think are going to lead to some meaningful shifts in population um, towards some of those states and, in some cases, away from some of those states. Um, and and and and.
Raul Fernandez:More political concentration, more, more, more polarization, essentially, uh, in these places, and so that ain't good, it's just not. It's not good, it's not good for the United States and it also means it ain't good for the people that stay in places, because they don't really have many other options for us, I mean for undergraduate admissions, for instance.
Raul Fernandez:I think a lot more students now are thinking about the policies in the states where they're applying to colleges in a way that they probably didn't before. Right, I'm applying to a college, I'm not applying to a state, but now people are really thinking about that. I think that's going to have some meaningful impact on where people go to college, especially at a decision-making point. Right Like you don't necessarily think about moving. You got to move my whole life, but if I'm going to go to college anyway, I'm moving anyway. Where am I going to go? And so those are the kinds of things that we're trying to focus our attention on and then think about, because you know, what we've seen is who the president is makes a big difference on what life is like on college campuses and what life is like period, and then also which party is exercising power either at the federal level or the state level, the distinction between living in this state and that state is just going to grow and it's going to impact especially where people decide they want to live.
Raul Fernandez:If they're at the decision point of going to college not just what college they want to go to, but what state they want to live in while they're in college and maybe stay afterwards it's going to lead to a meaningful shift, especially for anybody who does anything related to equity work or education, teaching, you know, diversity work, all that kind of stuff.
Raul Fernandez:It's it's you know I can't imagine doing what I do right now in Florida. I don't think I'd be able to write not in a meaningful, authentic, honest way, without fear of reprise or repercussions? I couldn't. I think it's something that we have to pay really close attention to. We've got an election coming up and I think that's going to lead to even further impacts for the people that can use the forum. That might lead to even further impacts for the people that can use the forum.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, and that was a lot.
Raul Fernandez:In my work I always tell my students my job is not to make you happy. It makes you feel good about anything. It's to tell you where things stand and it's not like. I'll say it's not like. It's like, oh, I think think things are gonna be really bad. But I don't know what I'm talking about. It's like, oh, things are already bad. So I was telling you years ago it's gonna get bad. It's pretty bad right now and what I'm telling you now is it can actually get worse.
Raul Fernandez:And you know, I don't I don't get any, any joy out of out of sort of making that prediction or providing a lot of evidence that that's going to be the case. But I think I think you know we have to be, you know, going with the eyes open and make decisions, make political decisions, make life decisions, understanding. You know the um, the situation that we're in and um and how it's likely that this isn't just going to all of a sudden. You know we'll wake up one day and everything's going to be good again. We're going to be living with this for a while.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, yeah and it's. It's like owning a home. You always have like two types of people that own a home. It's like the person who pays attention to every crack in the foundation and says, okay, something's coming up, Let me keep an eye on it. And then you have the other guys who are like is this hole in my wall supposed to be here?
Raul Lopez:Is this okay, and then the house crumbles. So yeah, it's keeping your eye on that. I think it's important, especially for people of color, where we tend to get the short end of the stick sometimes. If we're not vigilant on what's going on around us, we're going to get caught up again, and we need to be able to make sure that we know what's going on, regardless of which way you think you're, it's the right way you should be.
Raul Lopez:You should be vigilant, so but but yeah, yeah, man, so so I know, on campus you're, you've also done. You've done a whole bunch of stuff on campus, I think you started. You told me a little bit earlier about this Latinx graduation that you guys are hosting at Boston University. Can you tell me something about a little bit about that?
Raul Fernandez:Yeah, so this is the first time that BU is holding this sort of Latinx student graduation. It's for undergrad and graduate students that are graduating from BU. It's going to be this really dope celebration, I think. Last night I heard over 200 graduates have registered to be there with their families and everything, so we have a lot of people there and they asked me to give a speech at the thing.
Raul Fernandez:You know I sort of I have to put that together real quick. It's next week, but as, thinking about it, it's interesting that BU and it's really driven by students and an advisor that are making this happen. So this isn't to give the university administration credit for saying we should be honoring Latino students. That's not happening. The students are making this happen right, and working to get some money from the administration to make it happen, but this is happening for the very first time at BU at a time when similar celebrations in other parts of the country are either being defunded or banned, um, which is like talk about like, come on like if you don't if you don't want the curriculum to make you know white people feel bad, because white people in the past did bad things like or even today, like if you want that, okay.
Raul Fernandez:If you think certain books are too salacious for kids to read, okay. But the idea that you're going to say that these folks can't come together and celebrate their accomplishments in a world where not enough of us get to that point to have that celebration and you're not going to fund it and you're not going to allow it to happen, it's just I mean, it's just absolutely. It's offensive is what it is, and so I remember.
Raul Lopez:I was in.
Raul Fernandez:Texas at UT Austin recently and learned about how their celebration got canceled. Thankfully, alums and some others have come together. Put some money together so that they can do it for their Latino students there even though the university is not supportive of it.
Raul Fernandez:It just makes it even more important that, in places where we can do these kinds of things, that we do it and we do it big, and that we show out and come together. I think it's going to be so great because it's not just about the students but it's also about their families and their friends and recognizing the faculty, recognizing just like how much it takes to get to get one, to get one of us, um there, and how many people it takes how many supports, how many opportunities um to make it from here to there and and to really celebrate that I just, I just think it's so important, so I'm excited for that yeah, no, it's dope.
Raul Lopez:I mean, uh, when you you made the announcement about that in our group chat, I was like you know that that's awesome Because you know we come into college. We feel, like I mentioned before, like you're just a little brown dot in a white wave. You don't know, you don't feel like you belong. And then you make your life on campus, you make community, you build something of yourself on campus. Then you get your graduation and for people who don't know, BU is a big school, you of yourself on campus. Then you get your graduation. And for people who don't know, BU is a big school, you know, there's five, like 5,000 people at my graduation. You know like thousands of people at graduation and you're like, all right, well, you know, at least I got my friends here.
Raul Lopez:And then you get split up into your smaller graduation based off of your major, and there's even less people I know and it's like, oh, I got like one or two Latino friends that are at the graduation and maybe some of your friends can get go to one and you might not meet see the other ones. You don't get to see some of the people. You've literally been spending every week at these meetings, at these groups, at these events, you know, building your family, your community on campus, and you don't get to see them graduate because you've been split up, You've been separated, you know. So I, you know that that's awesome, man. I think you know it helps hopefully make everybody feel better about what they're doing and gives them an opportunity to feel like, hey, I get to see my family graduate as well, not just myself, you know.
Raul Lopez:So, kudos to you on that man. That's that's freaking awesome. And so usually around the tail end of my conversation, I like to kind of come back and ask you to kind of reflect on your life and think about.
Raul Fernandez:You know, hey, if I could go back and talk to a younger version of raul and give him some advice, what's something you'd tell yourself? Oh man, um, I think I think we don't spend enough time when we're younger thinking about and understanding, like finances. Um, I I remember when I went and maybe it was still happening when you were there, I'm not sure, but they used to be in the student center. They used to be, the tables were there and there would be all these credit card companies and they would have, I remember, discover Card and all that, and they would have these t-shirts and be like hey here, sign up for a credit card, we'll give you a t-shirt, and everybody's like, oh, I want a t-shirt.
Raul Fernandez:And then literally signed up for a credit card, immediately went into debt and took years to pay at 25% interest rate or whatever ridiculous number it was, and then took forever to pay off like $9,000, ended up taking, you know, over a decade to pay off right, and so, you know, that's the kind of stuff that I wish I would have known about when I was younger, to watch out for and it's, you know, some of it's natural, like when you're young you don't think about being 50 or 60 or whatever. It is right, like you don't think about that, but, um, but at the same time I think, um, I think there are folks that have the social capital around them, like folks that understand credit scores and get their kids from when they're the youngest age possible, they get them into the system to be able to start building their credit score and have that credit age that's so important to you score and all that kind of stuff. And it is, as far as I can tell, even for those of us that also have bachelor's degrees like everybody else, master's, like everybody else, doctorate, like everybody else are still not in the same place financially as people who had that social capital and who had that generational wealth. No-transcript some point.
Raul Fernandez:Here's a couple of things. Just get yourself ready for that. I think. I think that's it. Other than that, I mean I made you know I made lots of mistakes. I don't really believe in sort of going back and regrets and everything. I think the only thing I regret from undergrad is not studying abroad, and I maintain that the only reason I didn't is because no one even mentioned it to me. If somebody that was older and that I respected said, hey, you should go study abroad first, I probably would have done it.
Raul Lopez:I just no one did no one ever mentioned it.
Raul Fernandez:But outside of that it just you know um like I feel, good where I'm at, and if I start going back and changing things that I wouldn't be where I'm at, right I feel pretty good about where I'm at. I wouldn't do that, but but I think you know if there was anything I could do to sort of get to where I am now, not not professionally, but just like mentally, like like understanding, seeing the world as it is, if I can get there sooner.
Raul Fernandez:I'd probably want to do that, but I also had some good years in there where I was just just a hot mess having a good time, so I wouldn't want to take that away from me either. Yeah, exactly.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, don't take away my fun times. And it's funny you mentioned those credit card things, because I remember they were still on when I when I was an undergrad it was. They were there all over the place and there was a. There was a time where I was a broke kid. Um, I had credit cards that I wasn't paying off because, you know, I did what you you're talking about.
Raul Lopez:I signed up for credit cards and racked them up and then couldn't afford to pay them off and so my credit was shit. And I'm walking home from class and they're giving out a free Domino's pizza if you sign up for a credit card. So I had no money, I had no dinner, and so I was like sure, and I signed up for a credit card. I knew it was going to get denied, but I got a free pizza out of it. So, yeah, they were there and they were giving you for your credit. You know it's like, oh, wow, man, it's like that, like what's it called the apple in Adam and Eve. It's like you know, here's a pizza and I'll take your soul. It's like, yeah.
Raul Lopez:I'm gonna take your credit score with me, but yeah, no they're assholes about that, yeah.
Raul Fernandez:But, that's the thing as I think about like that, like economic development stuff is really in community. It's really what I'm focused on right now. Like outside of education is like how do we help people level up? You notice, earlier I talked about people being underpaid, not low income, because low income almost like seems like it's saying something about them.
Raul Lopez:Right.
Raul Fernandez:But underpaid says something about the system, because there's people that work jobs just as hard as anybody. They do all the stuff the Republicansans say they should do. Right, you lift yourself up by, go get a job. Not everybody's gonna start a business. Some people are gonna have to work, like in, in, in minimum wage jobs and not necessarily be able to do that. Um, but it's things that we either want people to do or need people to do right, like who wants to go to a restaurant, like you know, seat themselves, go in the back, make their own food, serve it to themselves and then pay the bill on the way out. That's called being at home.
Raul Lopez:You know what I mean.
Raul Fernandez:But you want to go out.
Raul Fernandez:Well, if you want restaurants to exist, you got to recognize that people live off of what they make working there, right, and these are underpaid people who work their asses off, and it's not just in the restaurants, it's all kinds of industries and they just don't get paid enough to live somewhere to put their kids in childcare, which they need to, and then also eventually to like maybe level up by having their kids go to college or whatever.
Raul Fernandez:And these are people that also are performing necessary functions, or at least things we want people to do in whatever. And these are people that also are performing necessary functions, or at least things we want people to do in society. And so I just think you know, really referencing like the fact that these folks are underpaid is really important, and thinking about how we can help them level up by fighting for better minimum wages for everybody and better benefits and time off, especially when you have a kid or taking care of somebody who needs it. And then also you know things like basic income that allow people, you know the support they need and the dignity to take care of themselves and their family.
Raul Fernandez:You know, all those things are just like are to me no brainers and so important and would improve everything else would improve educational outcomes, would improve health outcomes, would reduce crime, reduce homelessness, all things that would be really good. And it seems like it's the thing that people have the hardest time doing is saying like yeah, I'll give you, I'll create food pantries on every corner I'll you know whatever you know, whatever, those kinds of programs are fine, but the idea of just giving people more money is just so and we have it is the problem.
Raul Fernandez:The thing is, we have it and just the idea of giving people more money, even when we have it, is just seems like like so wrong even to democrats, by the way, and and I'm hoping that in this next generation we can shift that and understand that like we're going to get better outcomes for everyone, for society, if people are have enough that they can afford to live safely, that they can have their kids taken well care of. I think that's really important. The last thing I'll say is you said last two years ago now maybe I was at jury duty and I was asked to serve on this jury and I love jury duty. Some people are trying to get out of it like jury and I love jury duty. Some people are trying to get out of it like openly, and I love it. I think it's great.
Raul Lopez:Every time I'm on jury duty I'm like I hope I get picked. I'd love to be in court.
Raul Fernandez:I was like I know I'll make a decent decision. I don't know about all these other people, so I'm going to try to get on it. And so I did get picked. I was like all right, this is the first time ever and it ended up being this case where everybody involved was Brazilian everybody and immigrants, and they lived in this building in Quincy and in Massachusetts.
Raul Fernandez:And basically all of them worked minimum wage jobs or under the table jobs like off the books kind of stuff right, all of them. Away jobs or under the table jobs like off the books kind of stuff right, all of them. And these parents, they for these, these two girls, they, they basically had no real options for affordable child care. So there was a woman in the building that said I'll watch you kids. Um, and uh, long story short. Um, at best, these kids were being basically sat in front of a TV for hours on end and that was, that was the kind of child care they got. And at worst, what happened unfortunately sorry listeners is that the two girls were molested by the husband of the woman that was running this unlicensed daycare in the building. Right, it was. It was terrifying, it was traumatizing. All of us are crying in the building, right, and it was terrifying, it was traumatizing. All of us are crying in the courtroom and everything.
Raul Fernandez:But I'm also thinking about the difference between what those kids are getting and my kid and how because I'm not wealthy, but because I got enough to afford it Like, my kid is in high quality childcare where I know she's safe. Every day, I get pictures throughout the day of what she's doing, notifications if anything happens, you know, maybe she tripped or whatever. She's also being engaged the entire day, with no screens, with people who have degrees in early childhood education. In early childhood education, the gap between what people with money can get for their kids at the earliest ages, before public school even starts, and those who don't have money. The gap between what those two folks get is so big. It, in my mind, explains nearly everything about the gaps we see later on in education. Is those first five years before school even starts, is is my kid getting, you know, engaged in? They also have my wife and I, you know, doing our part in it too, but nowhere near what these teachers are doing for her and how her language, my daughter's language, seems to have exploded.
Raul Fernandez:Every day.
Raul Fernandez:She's got new words and talking about new things and having new experiences that I couldn't provide right Compared to what those you know, those girls faced in Quincy and even without the horrors that they faced, like even just not that kind of level of engagement and learning that right there, if we could focus on fixing one thing immediately and sort of throwing whatever money we have available to that is producing, you know, making sure that there's high quality childcare for every kid out there at no cost frankly like that would be the biggest thing that we can do.
Raul Fernandez:And so that's something I've been, I've been trying to push for here and I'm going to be fighting to make that happen, but it's it's you know that alone.
Raul Fernandez:If, if, if people don't want to want to give, give money to, to, to, to families, all that kind of BS that people feel about that. I think that's wrong too. But but at the very least, um, hopefully we can agree that the kids between the age of zero and five deserve the best possible chance um to get a start in life. We can, we can get down on that.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, yeah, man, yeah, I mean, I know it's a a lot to unwrap on that one, but yeah, I mean, from the cost of childcare has gone crazy, and so I can. When I would have my daughter when she was younger and she's 10 now. Seven years ago, when we were dealing with this stuff, it was, it was crazy trying to find a good daycare, you know, and that's with making decent money, like you said. You know it's still back and forth whether or not. You know, should we spend 300 more here or go that way? So it's, you know it's scary when you have money, it's scary when you don't. So it's, it's a good thing to change. But, and excuse me, so I guess. Finally, my last actual question that I have is you know how do you say success in Spanglish?
Raul Fernandez:You know, man, I think for me it's about community, it's about like, really any success I have is because there were other people that kept me from dropping out, other people that kept me from being homeless, other people that helped give me food when I didn't have it, who helped me out with money when I didn't have it.
Raul Fernandez:Just having that kind of safety net of people that are going to hold you when you need it and lift you up when you need it, has made all the difference for me. And so I think there's a lot of pieces to success Spanish or otherwise, but for me, being in community with you and the other fellas and and with all these other people where I live now, like how we look out for each other, like like that's the thing that made the difference for me.
Raul Lopez:Nice, Awesome man. Well, Raul, thank you so much you know, for everything and I appreciate all the work you're doing out there at Boston University. And, once again, thank you so much for being on the show.
Raul Fernandez:Thank you brother.
Raul Lopez:I appreciate it, and so for everyone else. Thank you so much for joining. I hope you'll come back next time, as we continue to learn how to say success in Spanish you.
