How Do You Say Success in Spanglish?
The path to success isn’t paved for people of color. Join me as I sit down with individuals who share their stories as we learn how to say Success in Spanglish.
How Do You Say Success in Spanglish?
Illegalized: Undocumented Success - Rafael Martinez
Illegalized: Undocumented Youth Movements in the United States out Now!
BIO:
Rafael Martínez is an Assistant Professor of Southwest Borderlands in the College of Integrative Sciences and Arts. At ASU, he teaches courses on the American Southwest, Arizona History, the U.S.-Mexico Borderlands, and Transborder Chicano Literature. Rafael is also a Program Faculty for the MA Narrative Studies program in CISA.
Rafael’s work focuses on immigration, migration, the U.S.-Mexico Borderlands, and the American Southwest. His forthcoming book with the University of Arizona Press, Illegalized: Undocumented Youth Movements in the United States, analyzes the rise of Undocumented Youth Social Movements in the U.S. and immigrant youth’s contributions to the broader Immigrant Rights Movements. Rafael's work engages in Borderlands Studies to demonstrate how communities along the Mexico-U.S. border contribute to the social, political, and economic fabric of the U.S.
Summary:
Step into an inspiring narrative as Rafael Martinez shares his journey as an undocumented immigrant navigating the challenges of academia. Born in Mexico and raised in Los Angeles, Rafael offers a unique perspective on what it means to strive for success amidst adversity. With his parents' sacrifices as a backdrop, he's determined to redefine what success looks like for individuals like him, who often face systemic barriers.
In this episode, we delve into Rafael's early life experiences, his pursuit of higher education, and the transformative power of mentorship. He reflects on the role of DACA in opening doors previously deemed impossible. His upcoming book serves as a culmination of years of research framing the experiences of undocumented youth and challenging the narratives surrounding immigration.
Join us as Rafael discusses the significance of community, resilience, and mentorship in shaping one's path to success. It's a heartening reminder that success is not a one-size-fits-all concept but a personalized journey defined by individual aspirations and collective support. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that will inspire and empower you to rethink the meaning of success in your own life. Be sure to pre-order his compelling book, “Legalized,” set to release this October!
See more at www.successinspanglish.com
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Intro Song: Regaeton Pop - Denbow Ambiance
This is Raul Lopez, and you're listening to. How Do you Save Success in Spanglish? The path to success isn't easy For minorities and people of color. Many attempt this journey with little to no guidance. Join me as I sit down with individuals who share their stories of perseverance so that together we can learn how to save success in Spanglish. What's good, mijente? It's your boy, raul, welcome back. This is how Do you Say Success in Spanglish?
Raul Lopez:Today, my guest is Rafael Martinez. How's it going, raf? It's going well. Thank you for having me in the show. Oh, of course, man, thank you so much for joining me and looking forward to be able to talk more about your journey and get some insight on the life that is. You know, that is your life.
Raul Lopez:So, to kind of start off, just to give a little background, rafael Martinez is an assistant professor of Southwest Borderlands in the College of Integrated Sciences and Arts at ASU and arts At ASU he teaches courses on the American Southwest, arizona history, the US-Mexican borderlands and transborder Chicano literature. Rafael is also a program faculty for the MA Narrative Studies program in CISA. Rafael's work focuses on immigration, migration, the US-Mexican borderlands and the American Southwest. His forthcoming book with the University of Arizona Press. Illegalized Undocumented Youth Movements in the United States. Analyzes the rise of undocumented youth social movements in the US and immigrant youth contributions to the border. Immigrant rights movements. Ravel's work engages in borderland studies to demonstrate how communities along the Mexico-US border contribute to the social, political and economic fabric of the United States. Which is a mouthful, so thank you very much for giving me all that to say. But very impressive bro, very, very impressive.
Rafael Martinez:Thank you. Yeah, no, it's been a long trajectory, which I'm happy to share with you on the show, and this is, I think, a great model and a great medium to connect folks that you know, be able to share their narrative, share their story and, basically, you know, as Latinos, we're always talking about how did we make it, how did we get there? Well, we get to share a slice of that history with your audience, nice.
Raul Lopez:Awesome. Well, thank you so much and I guess let's get with it.
Rafael Martinez:So tell me you know who is Rafael Martinez? Yeah well, I'm a professor, as you heard in my intro. That's my day job. I always like to think of it as that way. But beyond that, you know, I'm a father. I'm a son, I'm a partner to a great family and I live in Arizona, particularly in Chandler, Arizona, Originally grew up in Guanajuato, Mexico, that's where I was born and was raised in Los Angeles, California, and did graduate school at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and got the chance of graduating with my PhD right in the middle of COVID.
Rafael Martinez:If you can believe that, graduating with a PhD after so long, so much work, so much hard work basically, no graduation, virtual graduation, get to leave through the back door after being in Albuquerque for so long, but all with the hopes of, of course, starting my career, my profession as a professor here at Arizona State University, which I've now been here for four years, starting on my fourth year. And yeah, so that's a little bit in a nutshell who I am on my fourth year. And yeah, so that's a little bit in a nutshell who I am. I like to be involved in community work not necessarily consider myself an activist, but more so an organizer and really cultivate and build community and everywhere that I've lived, that's something that's really important to me and really now my biggest motivation is being a father and hopefully being able to offer something to the next generation, including my daughter's generation. Nice, Awesome man.
Raul Lopez:I mean, yeah, as a father, I totally get that last part of it. You know, everything else is great. And then you have a kid and it's like, oh no, nothing's as great as this. So yeah, I feel you. So tell me. I mean, obviously you came into this country from Mexico. How old were you when you came to the country?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, so I actually got here, of all days, cinco de Mayo of 1990. And my birthday is May 28th. So essentially, just you know, a little under 20 days before my fourth birthday, just you know, a little under 20 days before my fourth birthday. So I was three years old, going on four, when I arrived to the country. And you know, basically like most Mexican families, the idea was to come here for a few years, work hard, make some money and maybe make a business or make a life back in Mexico after a few years of some income, make a life back in Mexico after a few years of some income. But that two years, four years, five years, turned into a lifetime and basically, like a lot of our immigrant families that live here in the US, have now called the US home, and so has my family, and I always think about that decision and the tough decisions my parents must have had to make. But I think you know, overall it's been for the best of myself, my sister and, of course, our growing family.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, I mean I'm also I came to this country about the same age as you, when I was about a little over three Also undocumented. I don't think my parents had planned to go back at all, I think they just came to stay. But but yeah, no, I mean I totally understand where you're coming from and so as we're growing up you guys were undocumented. You know, did you recognize or understand some of the challenges early on, or that's something you kind of started learning later on in life on in life.
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, again, I think back to now that I'm a parent and thinking about parents' decisions and what they share with their children. What's the appropriate age to share things with your children? But I think you know my parents from a very early age. I feel like I always knew what my status was. I always knew my realities and my parents talked openly about those realities and situations in our household. You know, and I think that was something that, whether we like it or not, como si quieres o no quieres, like as a kid you know to speak in Spanglish along with the show name you know you have to grow up fast in some ways and really be open to those realities. And so I think at a very early age I already had some very critical questions and you know self-awareness about my family's, you know status but also how we were similar or different to other American families. Other families in my neighborhood were very similar.
Rafael Martinez:You know I grew up in a part of LA South Central LA that's predominantly Latinx and Black or African American, with a heavy concentration of immigrants. So, luckily, I feel like I grew up in a place where my story was not, you know, out of the norm or necessarily atypical, but I grew up with a lot of neighbor friends who were also undocumented, were also immigrant families, and so I think that that helped me, you know, kind of feel like, oh, I'm not out of place even though I'm in a foreign country or a different country. But it also, I think, gave me a lot of the critical questions that I don't think most six-year-olds or eight-year-olds when I started coming of age was asking like, hey, what does my neighborhood look the way that it does? Why is it that we drive, you know, 20, 30 minutes and those neighborhoods look radically different? You know, I think, a lot of those questions. And then also, la was going through a lot of changes, california was going through a lot of changes in the early 90s as well, and so my parents always listened to the Spanish radio when we were driving to school or work or we were watching the afternoon news while we were making dinner and things of that sort. So I feel like news and political messaging and all those things were always in the back of my ears, or mind, if you will. And you know, I think like I always interacted with all of that messaging at a very early age.
Rafael Martinez:And try to formulate like who I was as a person, as an individual, and also, you know who I wanted to be essentially in the future. And you know my parents never shied away from taking me to their jobs, to their work, you know, and you know part of it was out of necessity. Many of the times they didn't have places to necessarily leave me, but I would see their hard work that they would perform. Both of my parents will come from the same town where I was born Guanajuato. It's called Moroleón Guanajuato and it's basically an industrial town. It's not an agricultural town but it's an industrial town that primarily focuses on garment industry. So they sew and make clothes and shoes and things of that sort.
Rafael Martinez:So that was another natural transition for coming to Los Angeles because you know, la is one of the garment, has a huge garment industry. You know that's worldwide essentially, and so when my parents got there, I got to see, I went to their factorias, their factories where they worked. You know a lot of people would call them sweatshops because you know they're not the best of conditions, and so as a little kid I would see them how hard they would work, how many hours they would work, and they would always tell me. You know. You know you could choose to do this labor if you want to, or you could choose to stay in school and, you know, pursue something else, and I think that's something that always stuck.
Rafael Martinez:I didn't quite understand, of course, at that age and time, but that's something that always stuck with me, is okay. Well, there's a few options, there's not one option. You don't have to choose to stay in the destiny or kind of what you're born into or what your family, you know, has done. You could, you know, aspire for something else, and I recognize that my parents were also making that sacrifice, you know, coming to a country that wasn't theirs, speaking a language that necessarily wasn't there and adopting to a culture that wasn't theirs. So for me it was.
Rafael Martinez:You know, where do I want to make that sacrifice count? The day of tomorrow. And so that's something that you know. I was stuck. They didn't necessarily know how to navigate the educational system or tools, but they always gave me the confidence and the motivation and the support to say whatever you decide, as long as it's something positive and within school or sports, we're going to go ahead and try to do our best to support it. And so a lot of times I would be the one looking up you know programs or after school programs, tutoring, all these other different things that we could do, and they always said, yes, you know, as long as they could afford it and as long as they could do it and support me, they always did, and so that's something that I think always stood with me.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, I think it's always the hindsight, as you get older, to kind of look back and say, oh, you know, I didn't feel like an immigrant of my life, but I recognize things now where it's like, you know, there was things we had to do, we had to be very you know we never caused trouble with the landlord because we didn't want nobody to call somebody on us, or you know we avoided things with the police or we you know.
Raul Lopez:But you just kind of were growing up and you were just like, oh, that's just like living. And then you get old and you recognize, okay, my parents are doing this and we're doing this, and they're they. They literally, and back in the day you left your family and you might not have talked to them for six months to a year. It's not like now where you can FaceTime everybody every day and WhatsApp people up the ass, but it's just. You know, it was a big sacrifice and you know we, as you grow older, you recognize that, you notice that and I think it helped drive me, and so I know you said education was important to you. But what was a big driving factor for you when it came to education? Was it just seeing the differences in the potential work or was it the sacrifices?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, I think you know there's several factors, I think that push me to education. You know, one of the ones is kind of briefly talked about, which was, you know, really trying to understand this new environment, or the US, if you will, right, where I was asking very critical questions, and it sounds a little cliche, but it's true. Like you know, I remember very clearly when the Rodney King beating happened, you know, in 1992 in LA, that you know. Basically, I remember my parents telling me hey, we came here for a better life and all of a sudden, my city's on fire, right, like I look outside my window and my city's on fire. And so I literally remember saying like, well, why did this happen? And the only response that the news was telling me is like, oh, this motorist did something wrong and people are upset with it because they're African-American, and like this whole issue about race being so big, right. And so, even though I was an immigrant, I was like, oh, wow, like well, there's a history here of people being treated a certain way if you look a certain way and if you live in a certain place, right, and so all of those things for me started asking all these questions.
Rafael Martinez:Then, when I got to, I think I didn't really think about, you know, college or any of those things until I started getting to like middle school and high school and, in particular, I started getting I made really good mentors. I feel like I always had good history teachers all the way through and I feel like that just pushed me in that direction. Like that just pushed me in that direction Again, having all these questions where I was trying to make sense of my world, make sense of the US, and you know my place in it and you know, when I took world history in middle school, it was like, oh, like you know, learning about all the civilizations and learning non-Western civilizations that had great things, like in the Americas, in Mexico, central America, south America, you know, all these different places that people had done, accomplished great things before colonial conquest, and so all of those things, I think, stood with me all the way up to like high school and then again having really good mentors. And then when I got to college and really, you know, found my first mentors within taking Chicana and Chicano studies courses, that formed like the consciousness that I had been looking for all of my life, where I, you know, I was trying to answer these questions, or trying to ask the right questions, I should say. And then I realized, you know, through professors that said, oh, you know what the type of questions that you're asking are like research questions, right, they're questions that require, you know, in-depth analysis, looking at archives, looking at records, you know, being able to think about this stuff and write about these things. And I said, you know what is all of that? And you know, I didn't know what doing research meant. I didn't know what being a professor meant. I just thought of it as you know, a teacher for college students. But it was really through their models and through their examples that I realized that that was something I wanted to pursue, that you know, I wanted to be like some of those professors who were able to teach and research but also teach the next generation about these things, because I knew that if I was growing up with these questions, I'm sure a lot of other kids in the hood, a lot of other kids in different cities across the US were growing up in similar and different ways as well, with similar questions that needed those answers, and so that was really a big part of my motivation. But again, really it started with my parents and that foundation of saying we came to the US for a better life. Education is really the pathway.
Rafael Martinez:And then the last thing I'll say about that and we could expand maybe a little later was that as an immigrant, as an undocumented person at the time, you know, education felt like the safe bet.
Rafael Martinez:Right, if I'm not, if I'm going to not be, if I'm going to graduate and not going to be eligible necessarily to have a job, you know I'm just going to stay in school as long as I can, right, why graduate Just get a degree? And so education felt like a safe bet because when I talked to my professors, when I talked to my teachers from, you know, middle school, high school and then college, they understood me, they supported me. You know they were okay with my status and who I was. You know they were okay with my status and who I was. It was the rest of society, if you will. That didn't feel like a safe place of like not being able to get a job. And you know, certain politics federally and state level politics that you know restricted you from doing other things, and so in some ways, education felt like a safe bet pretty much to now, essentially.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting the way you put it that it's a safe bet because there are so many challenges. And so for people who might not understand, you know, as I think people have to have a pretty broad brush that they paint undocumented immigrants with and they don't recognize the challenges that we have Now, can you talk a little bit about some of those challenges you had, especially when it came to like college and high school and things like that, as an undocumented immigrant?
Rafael Martinez:Yes, yes, of course. And so you know, growing up undocumented, you know you really don't start hitting a wall, I would say, until you start coming of age, really your late teens and about to enter college. For me, I remember being in high school and all of my friends starting to get their driver's licenses and getting their cars, some of them getting cars and being able to drive around and hang out and all that cool stuff that everybody associates with being able to drive, all that cool stuff that everybody associates with being able to drive. Well, at the time in California, undocumented communities weren't eligible for a driver's license, right? And so basically all of my time that I lived in California, which was all the way until I was 26 years old, I didn't drive, which, if anybody who's listening to this, who knows California or knows LA, it would probably be like freaking out because they're like, how did you get around if you never drove in LA? Like LA is a driving city, like you can't get around. And so it was a lot of public transportation, taking the bus everywhere, the metro everywhere, getting rides. You know, friendships, I think that you know, when I go back to LA and I see a lot of my friends. The first thing I remember is, you know, getting rights from them and, just you know, being able to listen to their radio stations, to their music and hanging out with them. Because, again, that was such like. When we think about allyship and being allies to other communities that are marginalized or vulnerable, we think of the big things, but sometimes it's the little things that make a difference. In this case, giving somebody a right who can't have access to a driver's license is such a big deal. And so, yeah, in high school that was the case A lot of my friends started getting their first jobs in high school.
Rafael Martinez:Going into college Again, you know, I wasn't eligible to have a work permit or be able to work legally in the US. So my parents said, hey, you know, let's just put that off, let's wait until you're a little bit older. So all my friends were, you know, driving, getting their job, buying new shoes, new kicks, everything else. And you know, for me I'm just like stationary. I felt like, you know, I'm in place if you will, and that was very frustrating. You know, if you think of teenagers today who have access to everything really quick on their phones and material culture is so big in the United States. That was such a frustrating, tough and, you know, carried a lot of anger and to this day, I'll be honest, you know, I think a lot of people don't understand that my whole episode in California was undocumented. So every time that I think about California or every time I go back to California, california or LA, for me represents the struggle, right, it represents the hardship. I'm literally driving through LA and I'll look at, you know, a bus stop and I'll look at it in a different light every single time that I go back, because I remember those things and that frustration in some ways is still there and things like that. So those were tough.
Rafael Martinez:Once I got to college, I decided to go to my local state school and a big part of that was affordability and also, again, mobility, right, I couldn't travel to another school, so I literally went to the school that was closest to me and that was affordable to me. State schools are much more expensive today in California but luckily, at that time they were much more affordable. I remember paying as low as $900 a semester for tuition, right, which is still a considerable amount for an immigrant family, but thankfully, again, my parents supported and with their help, and then eventually I did start working. My first job was working drive-thru at McDonald's. I'm not ashamed to say it right, that was my job all through my undergraduate career. It was a McDonald's that was closest to my university. So I went to work from 4 am, I got off at 12 and then basically did afternoon classes. I walked to my university from then, basically did afternoon classes. I walked to my university from work and did afternoon classes and then basically, you know, took the bus home and was home by like 8 or 9 pm, that you know, that evening. And so that was my reality basically, for my undergrad was about eight years.
Rafael Martinez:And again, when I tell people that I spent eight years in undergrad, they're like well, why did it took you so long to graduate? I said, well, you know, there was times where I was taking not full now full term classes, I was just taking a few classes at a time to be able to pay for it. And there was times where, you know, again I was like I'm not going to graduate, there's no reason for me to graduate the day of tomorrow. So I just kept taking credits and taking credits. Luckily there was in-state tuition in California, and I shouldn't say luckily.
Rafael Martinez:But you know, actually in my research and in my book that I talk about. In my book, which we'll talk about in a minute, you know, part of that research was looking at how immigrant youth and undocumented youth have been fighting and organizing in California as early as the 1980s to get in-state tuition in California. That actually didn't happen until the early 2000s, right. So by the time that I get to college in 2004, we already had in-state tuition in California. Texas, of course, is the first state that passes in-state tuition for undocumented youth in 2001,. Surprisingly, because that has changed over time in Texas as well.
Rafael Martinez:But yeah, so by the time that I get to college I am able to qualify for instant tuition, and that made a world of a difference. We didn't have state aid at the time in California. That came much later. So after I graduated, during the time that I was an undergrad, I organized with people all across the state to pass what's now the California Dream Act. California Dream Act and the California Dream Act is what gave undocumented youth not only in-state tuition but also state aid, where they could apply for state aid and be able to apply that for their scholarships and to go to college. I didn't have any access to that, but I was proud and happy to say that. You know, like many other youth, we fought for that and we got that and that's in place now for students in today's colleges, all across out of pocket essentially. And then I'm getting that first job. That you know was not the easiest and not the desired job, but you know, I'm still proud to say that it helped out and got me through my undergrad.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, it's, and it's kind of hilarious that you know there's a negative picture sometimes for these low skill jobs, that for someone who can't get a job Like how did you feel, like the moment you finally got a job? You're like, how did you feel?
Rafael Martinez:Honestly, I was just. I was just excited. I was just excited to have a job, to be able to say, oh my God, I'm going to have a paycheck, I'm not going to depend on my parents anymore, I'm not going to put that burden on my parents anymore. You know I could access, you know things, you know it was a big deal. And I remember because so I'll tell you a quick anecdote and I share this with you know close friends. But I remember applying for a job at Universal Studios Hollywood and I went through the whole application process. I got interviewed for it and I basically got made the cut. I mean, there was like hundreds of us that got interviewed and everything.
Rafael Martinez:And I'm like an 18, 19-year-old kid and I get hired for one of their shows, actually in the concert hall. And you know it's like this big deal because I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to be able to see concerts, blah, blah. And then I get a phone call and they're like, hey, you know we're having issues with your paperwork. You know, can you come into the office and like, let's talk about it? And you know, just bringing your paperwork, and you know, you got come into the office and like, let's talk about it. And you know, just bringing your paperwork and, and you know, you got the job.
Rafael Martinez:And of course I never called them back, I never. I never followed up. I was like, ah, you know, there goes that opportunity. So I was really bummed out, you know, because that would have been a cool job.
Rafael Martinez:But then when I got landed a job in McDonald's, I was like you know what like this anything is good. I was like you know what like this anything is good? Having that culture and that, having access to money and be able to work and support yourself, that's a big deal. So, yeah, no, I think that you know, it was just a big deal at the time, for sure, and I'm still grateful for it. And I'm grateful for the experiences because I think that, even though it was a low-skilled job, I learned so much from that job and I learned customer service. I learned how to not be shy, how to talk to people, how to get out of very difficult situations, you name it. You see so many experiences in the fast food industry that you have to learn quick and as a 19-year-old, I feel like I had to learn quick there as well.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, definitely yeah. I feel sometimes like immigrant humility is a big part of our lives, like taking the small things and making them feel great. So obviously you're in college and you're talking about Dreamer and all that stuff. Did you eventually get access help with DACA as well?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, so, you know, I stayed in touch with my mentor and advisor through my undergrad and I organized with her and she actually moved to the University of New Mexico two years before I was set to graduate or was even thinking of graduating. I stayed in touch with her. She became the director of Chicano and Chicano Studies at UNM and you know, she called me once and she said, hey, are you still interested in grad school? And I said yes, and she said, well, what's stopping you? And I said, well, money, like I don't have money for grad school, you know. And she said, well, you know, I think, if you're interested, I think there's opportunities out here that we can support with that. And I was like, well, that's, you know, that's all the opportunity and the help that I need. So I'm down, you know, I'm all for it. And so I stayed in touch with her for those two years, you know, finally worked on graduating. Two years, you know, finally worked on graduating and I graduated, you know, spring 2012.
Rafael Martinez:And, of course, daca, or Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, that President Obama announced as an executive auction happened on June 15 of 2012. Right, so I was already getting. I had been saving up for forever on my McDonald's job. You know, I saved all the money that I could to make the transition and move to New Mexico. You know, at that point DACA hadn't been announced, so I was literally just counting on this opportunity and making the best out of it. When the announcement happens, the summer of 2012, I mean, that just changed my life. It was just like, oh my God, like I'm going to have access to a work permit, I'm going to be able to, you know, be in the US legally. You know, it just made a world of difference, but it was still a little bit like, is this thing really going to happen? You still have all those doubts and like is this real? Or like you know something going to happen. But I start.
Rafael Martinez:You know, I started my master's program at UNM in the fall of 2012. And so I applied that fall 2012 to DACA. And so after my first semester, I think I got DACA my first time, maybe like late November, early December. So that first semester it didn't really kick in or make a big effect, if you will. But of course, by my second semester now, I was able to legally work on campus. So right away I got a graduate assistantship, meaning that I was working with a professor, being mentored by a professor and doing research right off the back, and that, basically, assistantship not only covered my tuition right so I didn't have to pay for tuition out of pocket and it gave me a monthly stipend right, which was plenty to live off of.
Rafael Martinez:Luckily, albuquerque, new Mexico, is a very affordable city and a very affordable place, and so it was just the perfect scenario.
Rafael Martinez:But yeah, that was the game changer, I would say, because my whole experience again in California as an undergrad had been undocumented, which presented all those hardships that I just outlined a minute ago. And then for my graduate school in New Mexico, it was completely the opposite. It was just night and day. It represented all the opportunities that I didn't have as an undergrad and I had a job, I was able to legally be in the United States and New Mexico also had driver's licenses. So right away, you know, my second semester I apply, I take my driver test and I luckily pass and I get a driver's license. And I didn't get a car right away, but you know, just to be able to drive made a world of a difference my whole experience as a graduate student, from my master's to my PhD that I was there in New Mexico for about eight years was just radically different from my undergrad experience, thanks to this program DACA that we still have today and which is what I'm still qualified under as a DACA recipient.
Raul Lopez:Nice, nice. Where's the first place you drove to once you got your license?
Rafael Martinez:Nice nice, where's the first place you drove to once you got your license. Well, you know, as mentioned, you know we're fraternity brothers and so one of the things that I did was I helped start a chapter there at the University of New Mexico, and so right away we had tons of brothers that helped out with that process, from Texas right that can drove out from Texas to New Mexico, brothers from California that helped out. So, you know, right away I told the brothers in New Mexico hey, we got to repay those debts, let's go ahead and take road trips to Texas, to California. And so I feel like almost every break that we had, like a spring break, fall break or like summer break, we were taking road trips to one of those places which you know I remember like those, those brothers that I took those road trips with, those are like just such memorable experiences because they literally, I remember them like making fun of like my driving.
Rafael Martinez:They were saying that I drive like a grandpa because I'm like literally behind the wheel, like all tense and nervous and everything going the speed limit and I was like chill guys, like you got to understand, like I'm 27 years old and this is like the first time I'm able to like, legally or actually able to drive. And so, yeah, I mean, that's that was literally my learning experience with brothers and then being able to drive to all these places and finally be on the road. And you know, I feel like since then I still value road trips so much more now that I'm able to do them with my family and go on road trips, because I feel like you know again, something as simple as like a driver's license or driving we take for granted in the United States, and so just having access to that mobility, I try to be mindful of those things and you know. But yeah, so I think probably Texas was the first place that we drove through for a road trip.
Raul Lopez:Nice, good old Texas. I miss Texas Good times.
Rafael Martinez:I think it was formal.
Raul Lopez:Formal might have been one of the ones you guys went to yeah.
Rafael Martinez:I think so. Yeah, I remember going to it, yeah.
Raul Lopez:So, yeah, I remember that that's a long time ago.
Rafael Martinez:I'm old, but no, that's awesome yeah, tell me about it.
Raul Lopez:So yeah, dude, and that's awesome. And you know, I think one of the things you keep bringing up is mentorship, the importance of mentorship and how it affected you, and you put something in your pre-interview questions the rule of three for mentorship. Can you explain that a little bit for me?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. You know, I learned this from a colleague and I feel like I've always in some ways been doing this informally. I've always in some ways been doing this informally, but it wasn't until, like, a colleague of mine and a mentor of mine explained it to me, where she said you know, ideally, there's a rule that you should think of it as a rule of three to mentorship, where you know, ideally, you have three people for different realms of your life that you can ask for support on a given moment, right? So, of course, we tend to think of the division of our life in terms of, like, our career, professional life, our personal life. You know, if you're into sports or anything like that, your athletic life or exercising things of that sort, right, you know I like running, for example, and so, like, if you like exercising, like you could have three runners or three exercise friends that know much more about exercising than you do that could help you out with, like, meeting your goals and things of that sort. The same thing with your career, right, I always tend to think of, like you know, I want to have colleagues and friends who can support and who've already gone through the steps that I'm currently going through right now.
Rafael Martinez:So, for example, right now, as an assistant professor, I'm working towards tenure, which is basically on your fifth or sixth year of being an assistant professor. Then you get promoted to an associate professor. Once you become an associate professor, you're there for good, right, in the sense that you now have a terminal contract. You still get promoted through the ranks if you will, but you're not getting evaluated in terms of your contract being questioned. If you will, right now, as an assistant professor, when you get evaluated towards senior, they could either, you know, give you that promotion or they could say, you know, thank you for your service. You know it's time to look for another job, essentially which is sounds very scary, right, but you know the way that people tell you is that you got hired for your potential and the work that you've already been doing, that you're going to be expanding on that, but you have to meet milestones in that process.
Rafael Martinez:And so since I got to ASU, since I got to being a professor, you know I've had colleagues and friends of mine who have already gone through the tenure process, the tenure process, who some of them are from within my field or a discipline and some of them are from outside discipline or field, and that's important, right? Because oftentimes you're going to get certain information from people within your area of influence that are going to tell you things. But it's also good to get perspectives, even though you're in the same career or in the same job, if you will, from people outside of that sphere of influence that could add or bring you a fresh pair of eyes. But ideally, you know you want to have three people that you could count on, that you know. If all three people are telling you similar information, then you know it's more to be true if you will or that you want to follow certain paths, but also that you take you know we're all different personalities, so you want to take different, you know qualities, different attributes, different assets from that piece of advice that works for you.
Rafael Martinez:Because I think the other thing about mentoring that oftentimes we forget that mentoring isn't about telling people what to do. It's about telling, sharing. You know, first of all listening rather than sharing, listening to what a person wants to accomplish and do, and you know, if they're asking for suggestions or recommendations, then possibly giving them to them and saying you know, this is what has worked for me. You know these are things to consider and things to think about, and then, as the mentee is thinking about what works for you in your scenario, so you take bits and pieces from those three individuals that you resort to for questions, and I think of people as assets, just as much as any other tool or resource that you can have available to you.
Rafael Martinez:People are assets, people are knowledge, and so if I don't know how to do something or I'm trying to do something, before I even Google it, before I even, you know, do anything else, I reach out to people that I know are in my realm of three, in that particular area or discipline or or, you know, whatever question I might have, and it's kind of like within a large network, right, like we're talking about our fraternity within our large network that we have access to.
Rafael Martinez:You have people in academia, so those people could be part of your three, right, you want to have three individuals and whatever questions, whatever area that you might be seeking advice for, and be able to have those folks. So think, thinking about you know, the different areas of your life you want to just keep, but think about those relationships as fostering, so it's not just, you know, being able to exchange give and take, but also friendships that you're cultivating right. You also need to be those one of those three, four people in the future as well. So you have to foster those relationships and water that garden, essentially, and make sure, making sure those friendships grow.
Raul Lopez:Nice, yeah, essentially, and and make sure, making sure those friendships grow, yeah, nice, yeah, I mean I, I think I'm the worst when it came to like finding mentorship, uh, in my life. So I, I went a long time without having. I still don't even know if I have mentors really in my life, but I, I'm doing my best to try to take advantage of my peers as mentors at this point with, especially with the fraternity and the brothers I have. So so I think, lots of times early on, we look at older people as our mentors, and at this point, some of your mentors could literally be people your age, even younger, that have accomplished things that you haven't done yet and you want to get their insight. So you know, I think it, I think it's important for people to realize that it's not too late to look for mentors or find mentors. You know, I think it's a valuable tool to use throughout your life, even as you get experience.
Raul Lopez:But obviously mentorship was important to you and I think it helped you eventually to get to where you're at now. So tell me what your journey was like to become a professor or assistant professor.
Rafael Martinez:Yes, yeah, present, yes, yeah. So when I started graduate school and the master's program, I always knew that if, okay, I made it this far. You know, master's again, you know, had DACA but didn't know what the situation with immigration was going to be. So, again, education felt like the safe bet. And so, you know, the idea of the PhD or a doctorate was always, you know, around and saying if I'm going into academia, you know, phd is the route. So, you know, I had good professor doing research and teaching classes. You know, I also looked at her as an example of how you can use education and higher education to mentor the next generation, to cultivate community and to craft strategically craft spaces in higher education to ensure that underrepresented voices are heard and included in the process of higher education. And so it was through her example that I realized, oh, it's not just about teaching, it's not just about researching and publishing, but it's also about, you know, mentoring and working with students on this level. And so, you know, for my master's, I was contemplating going elsewhere for the PhD, but I felt like I had the support system. I had already built a community there, at UNM, but also in Albuquerque and New Mexico more broadly at UNM, but also in Albuquerque and New Mexico more broadly. So I decided to stay there for the PhD.
Rafael Martinez:I did my MA and PhD in American Studies, which is an ethnic studies field, basically learning the history of diverse ethnic communities in the United States, but my research still focused particularly on immigrant youth and undocumented youth, and immigrant rights more broadly. When I got to UNM in 2012, I mentioned that DACA had just passed. One of the things that I had the privilege of doing was that, with my mentor, we organized a symposium at UNM in 2012, where we hosted organizers, activists from all over the United States and then scholars from all over the United States who were doing things around immigrant rights, and so we hosted them. We did the symposium, we recorded all the sessions, video recorded and audio recorded all the sessions. And you know I don't know if it's ever happened to you, I'm sure it's happened to all of us that sometimes you don't realize you're living a historical moment when it's unfolding in front of your eyes and you're like it's not until much later that you're like wow, like I still, I still need to process this. Like you know, this, this, this is a big deal and and that's what that symposium was for me, you know, when it came time to start thinking about my, my PhD dissertation, which is writing your research for your dissertation, you know I came back to that symposium. I said you know what this is? What I want to write? I want to write about the history in the way that undocumented youth, particularly in the 21st century, you know, have changed the way that we talk about immigrant rights today, and I kept up with a lot of those activists. I followed their, their activism, their actions. Um, I'm very much good friends with many of them today. I keep up with them on social media and things of that sort. And so, um, you know that that's basically what evolved into my dissertation for my PhD. Uh, and really what? Um, you know, um, what I worked on for all of my PhD.
Rafael Martinez:And then, you know, I knew that I wanted to be a professor already at that point, when I started the master's and went into the PhD, of course, because of my status, it was always like, well, there's nobody been, you know, an immigrant or a person with DACA who's a professor, right, like, how does that happen? And I remember talking to you know, because now we've had a large number of undocumented scholars, which means you know scholars who are in academia, who come from an undocumented background or perspective, who have DACA, like myself, this process, and many of them reaching out to me as well, or people that reach out to me now and say how did you do it? And I always go back to this because my fear was like, well, how am I going to get hired? And they say, well, you have a social security number and you have a work permit, so what's the problem? They shouldn't ask any questions. You have the legal right to work. They have the legal right to hire you. So what's the problem? And so it literally dawned on me it was that simple. But you know, again, you go through all these years of like can I do this? Well, I do this that it just almost feels surreal that that's a possibility. And so, luckily, like I said, I went from the PhD.
Rafael Martinez:I went on the job market, you know 2019. The academic job market is usually about a year long, in terms of you apply, let's say, in the fall, and then, if you get a job, it won't start until the following fall. And so I interviewed for the job that I got at ASU in fall, I did my campus visit, you know meaning. I went to visit the campus and did additional interviews at ASU in early February. I came back from the campus visit and they told me it would take about you know, a month to two months for me to hear back from them. They called me about two weeks later, offering me the job in like mid-February, which I was like just shocked and surprised and, you know, just in tears, like I couldn't believe it.
Rafael Martinez:I remember getting that call and being on the driving and on the driving and being in the car, so I pulled over and I was with my daughter who's, you know, she was only like three at the time and, um, she was just like, like she couldn't understand anything, like what's going on, like why is my dad crying? And um, you know, I just remember like hugging her and like just being so happy about that whole experience. But it was crazy. So I get the job, I take the job mid-February and then by early March, everything's on lockdown. Everything's closed down because of COVID, right? And so then you go into this whole panic mode like, oh my God, what's going to happen? Like am I even going to get this job? Like you know, I was was, of course, paying attention to the news and many universities were for furloughing people and many jobs were not pending through because, you know, people, uh, institutions, were having to, you know, um, figure out their budgets and scenarios of what was going to happen for this unprecedented time of COVID.
Rafael Martinez:Luckily, you know that didn't happen with me. You know the offer still went through and everything happened and it was a really great offer and you know I couldn't think of a better place to start my career than Arizona State University, because it's been a great place for me to start my career and really great colleagues, great atmosphere and of course, it was hard to move during COVID. In the middle of COVID, getting to Arizona, and literally the day that we moved here, it was like 120 in terms of heat, so it was like a rude awakening in so many ways. But no, it's been great. So that's a little bit of that trajectory going from, like, the research, the dissertation, to then, you know, getting the job offer at ASU and then, of course, the dissertations were turned into the book that's getting published and you know we'll be out later this year.
Raul Lopez:Nice, nice, and we'll be out later this year, nice, nice. And it's funny, of all the stuff, you were worried about not being able to get a job, with some damn virus that came along that give you the biggest scare, right, it's like it has nothing to do with your status, but that's awesome, man. And so you talked about your book and I was going to ask you about your book. Illegalize, I keep saying Illegalize.
Rafael Martinez:Tell me a little bit about the book. Yeah, of course. So, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, the book essentially came out of, you know, meeting and really my whole adult life experience as the way that I describe it and I start with this in the intro and in kind of the preface, you know, sharing a little bit of my positionality and my experience, but kind of saying that along while I'm experiencing all of this stuff in my personal life, you know, social media had just started in the early 2000s, right? So if you remember MySpace, then Facebook and all of those good things, a lot of my, you know a lot of my social media feed at the time was when undocumented youth had started to organize and do actions all around the United States and really take activism to places where it hadn't been. You know before, as I described the immigrant rights movement for historically had been a labor rights movement where basically anything that was dealt with immigration only had to do with labor, right, like exploitation of labor, bad working scenarios, all of these different things around labor. But it was never around identity, it was never around political issues and certainly immigrants were not the leaders of the movement themselves. It was, for the most part civil rights organizations and civil rights leader who would basically tell immigrants okay, you know, like what's your story? Okay, this is your story. Okay, sit in the back, let me go ahead and I'm the politician or I'm the authorized body. Let me go up and you know, sit in the back, Let me go ahead and I'm the politician or I'm the authorized body. Let me go up and you know, advocate on your behalf. Don't say anything, because if people hear your story, you're going to get detained and you're going to get deported. Right, and that was the narrative for the longest time within immigrant rights and until, you know, in the 2000s, when all these anti-immigrant policies started getting proposed.
Rafael Martinez:If you remember, one of my biggest moments was in 2006 and 2007. There were these giant marches that happened all around the United States for May 1st, or you know the immigrant marches that began popping up every year. You know the immigrant marches that begin popping up every year, and some of those marches were the largest in some of the major cities across the US, including LA, where I lived at the time. And if you attended those marches, like I did, the first thing that you saw was again the traditional messaging for immigrant rights movement. But then you saw immigrant youth who kind of fractioned off and started messaging differently. And so I document a lot of that history to show how that's really when undocumented youth started creating their own organizations and said no, you know what, we're going to go ahead and be our own leaders. We're going to change the way we talk about immigrant rights and we're going to take our activism to places that is affecting immigrant communities.
Rafael Martinez:Right, when we think about immigrant rights, we think of the borderlands, we think of the US-Mexico borderlands. Borderlands had moved into the interior of the country because all the policies, the 11 million undocumented immigrants that are estimated right, they've been living in the United States for a very long time, they're working in the United States, so the policy started being able to implement. You know, we had Homeland Security, born in 2001. Born in 2001. Ice you know, after the terrorist attacks in 9-11, ice became the branch that started detaining and detecting people in the interior of the country.
Rafael Martinez:And so what the activists that I document is? They start taking their activism, their civil disobedience, to places like detention centers, the US-Mexico borderlands and challenging the way that we talk about immigrant rights. Abolish ICE you know, nobody's illegal on stolen land. All of these different phrases that we hear about in mainstream media today, all of those came out of this particular movement where, you know, undocumented youth changed the way that we think about immigrant rights and the way that we talk about immigrant rights today. So, you know, the legalized portion of the title is basically, you know, the activism showing how immigrants are rendered illegal in the United States in these particular ways and showing that undocumented people themselves are not illegal, but it's actually, you know, things like detention centers that are violating human rights, pointing the finger back at the state and showing how the state is responsible for basically committing illegal acts on immigrant or human beings themselves as well.
Raul Lopez:Yeah, yeah, I remember those marches, both in the early stages and even when we were marching in front of different detention centers and things like that in Houston when I was in Houston.
Raul Lopez:So, yeah, it was all over the place and it's awesome to see I think that's one of the strongest things I think that's come out of. Social media is giving the youth a voice that spreads like wildfire now and they can be more present. So that's awesome that you've been able to focus on that. I appreciate you taking, uh, the time to actually make a book about it and and keep that.
Raul Lopez:You know hard, hard coding that, that part of history, in something that can't be taken away. So so you know, thank you for that, uh, and so, um, what's, what's? What's next for you? Like now that you're you're, you've gotten all this stuff. Obviously, you got your book. You're still your assistant professor, looking to get tenured. You know what are you looking forward to for in the future for yourself?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, well, you know I'll talk a little bit about some future plans, but really this year I'm excited for the book to be out. Right, it comes out in October. We'll post the link so hopefully folks who are listening to this go out and you can pre-order it. You know, get it and it'll be delivered in October. But I've gotten a few book talk invites to different campuses. So if all goes as planned, you know when the book comes out mid-October, and ideally almost every week, I'll be out of planned. You know the book comes out mid-October and ideally almost every week I'll be out of town. You know, doing a book talk in different campuses, which is very much a blessing, right, like the whole idea of going on a book tour to me again just sounds so real and I'm very grateful because it's been. I see it as a trajectory of work that now I get to be able to share this with different communities and, more importantly, share it with immigrant communities too that have gone through similar experiences and know what this means for our communities. So I'm really excited about that. But I'm also really just mentally, physically trying to prepare for that, because while traveling and also really, you know, just mentally, physically trying to prepare for that, because, while traveling and visiting new places sounds great, it's also, you know, thinking about, you know share responsibility with my partner and my daughter and like all of those things. And then I'll still be teaching this semester and so it's going to be a busy semester, but I'm looking forward to it and more towards the future. You know, again I'm looking. I'll be applying for tenure in the next two years Along those lines. I'm still working on a few articles that I want to. I'll be submitting and publishing that will go into my portfolio and ideally it's not just about a 10-year process. But now that I'm four years into being a professor, when I started you go through this high anxiety.
Rafael Martinez:Being at a place like ASU that's a research one institution. What that really means is that our professors are mostly there to research. They are there to teach. I teach two courses every semester, but really what I'm mostly being evaluated is on my research, right, and I love teaching. I could teach all day. I could work with students all day, but the idea of sitting alone or in isolation and writing and, you know, submitting all these things, that's been a challenge, right, and I would always tell people the joke that, like when I started as a professor, I felt like one of those old school rappers, you know, like that would do the mixtapes and be, like, you know, album coming soon, and then, like that album's like never coming out, right, that's how kind of how being an academic feels that you're like, oh yeah, you know, I'm working on all this research, I'm working on this work.
Rafael Martinez:It's probably not going to be published for, like you know, two, three years. So, like, stay tuned for it, it's coming, it's coming, you know, and so so I finally feel like you know, I've been starting to publish much more and things will be coming out. So it's a good relief and all that good stuff. But, honestly, that started several professional projects but also community based projects that I'm working with local communities where I live now doing oral history projects, public history projects, and so for me, like what I'm also looking forward to hopefully getting tenure and having that peace of mind is also to really grow, to call Arizona home right, because I feel like we have gotten rooted here and we are making community.
Rafael Martinez:You know, this is where my daughter's now primarily growing up, so I want to really make that a commitment to fostering her growth and her development and her to be surrounded by a community that is going to foster her growth. Just like earlier I mentioned the you know kind of like the mentoring of three. You know I tend to think of that with other people too, so even with our kids like putting people and building community around them that are going to like support their growth, you know, along the years, and so I think that's also the other thing that I'm looking forward to is just being able to feel rooted, you know, and I don't know if Arizona is going to be home forever, but you know it's somewhere where I'm committed to, or committed to as a family, you know, for for the next few years, where we want to grow and build and and, yeah, I think that's that's another thing that I'm really looking forward to is just continuing to to build community and and and see our family grow here Nice.
Raul Lopez:Nice, awesome, and I hope you get to do a little driving during your your book tour.
Rafael Martinez:So yeah, no, actually I'm, I'm looking forward to it. Some of them will be fly outs, but for sure some of them will be road trips and I'll make them road trips. Nice, awesome, awesome.
Raul Lopez:Well, usually around this time in the podcast, you know I asked a question. You know if you could go back and talk to your younger version of yourself and give yourself a piece of advice. What's something you tell yourself?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, that's a. That's a really good question and I remember listening to some of your podcasts and some of your guests having really insightful responses to that. I feel like, honestly, the thing that comes to mind when I hear that question is I would tell myself to be less anxious about the future. And of course, it's easier said than done, you know, later on in life than it was when you're going through all those things. But I would say you know that anxiety, you know sometimes that anxiety, you know sometimes, you know sometimes we confuse anxiety for resilience, right, because you know, sometimes out of anxious moments, we have to be resilient or we tap into our resilience to get us to the next level or get us to the next, you know, step that we need to in life. But we also, I think, in those anxious moments we also, I think, sometimes fail to really appreciate and really think through everything that we're experiencing. Everything is just so I need to make the next move, I need to make the next decision that we forget to or don't have the privilege of appreciating. You know the good, the bad and all of the things that come with our lived experience.
Rafael Martinez:So, you know, I always look like when I look at youth sometimes and I see their anxiety. Like I talk to my students and they're so worried about, you know, getting that high paying job and you know, being able to fulfill their parents' dreams and their expectations. I see so much anxiety in our youth and I think a lot of that anxiety is placed on our youth, starting with our parents, all the way to you know, educators and other folks that interact with youth, and I think one of the things that we just need to do is know that we all develop differently and that we all grow in different ways. And so if I were to talk to myself, it's you know you're playing the long game. Don't be too anxious, right, Don't want anything.
Rafael Martinez:You know too immediate, too soon and not that I wanted it, but it could be very frustrating when you don't get results. You know super quick, or you see others and they have the privilege to be able to get results quicker than you do. Myself is mostly to not be as anxious and take every step at a time and know that you know you're working towards these goals and you're taking the steps and that you know those things will come along. So, yeah, that's what I would tell a younger version of myself and also other people who are listening to the podcast. Younger people, is, you know. Take everything one step at a time.
Raul Lopez:I would say yeah yeah, I mean, sometimes we gotta live in the moment. You know people, people don't realize, um, being an adult is the longest part of your life. You know, it's, it's, you know. So they're always trying to grow up man, and then you get there and it's like, oh shit, when is this gonna end? It's 60 years, holy crap. Yeah, so no, it's, it's hard, man, but but no, I appreciate that man.
Raul Lopez:And then uh, so ultimately you know. My last question too for you is you know. So how do you say success in Spanish? You know what does success mean to you?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, that's, that's another great question and that's why I love the, the concept for your podcast so much, because, again, I think it means different things to to every everybody or two different people, right, uh, but to me, success I've always measured success by ideally, um, you know, um being able to set goals for yourself that that are that are realistic and that you could accomplish, and that you, ideally, are always working towards next goals and that you're fulfilled with those goals and that you continue to try to meet the goals, whether it be personal goals, career goals, health goals, mental health goals, career goals, health goals, mental health goals. You know we're always, you know I feel like we're always striving towards balance and sometimes there's moments in life where you have that balance and there's moments where you don't. Sometimes you know you're lacking in health, you're lacking in mental health, or you know you're doing really well professionally, but you know maybe you need to do more health conscious things, right? So I think you know it's it's as success to me is striving like putting those next goals, but also finding that balance and not again desesperandote or being frustrated to to accomplish those things at any cost. No, it's setting realistic goals right, knowing that you know, tomorrow I could possibly run two miles, but I can't run a marathon yet. Right, I need to work towards that marathon.
Rafael Martinez:You know not to bring up Nipsey Hussle or anything, but you know thinking about, you know we have to take those realistic goals. And so for me, it's putting those goals and being realistic, but also finding that balance. And I define that success by how close we come to at particular moments, to having balance in our life. And the best way that I think we can measure that balance is in our families. Right, if our family's healthy, our family's happy and our family has those goals in mind, then I think that you know that puts us forward on the trajectory that we need to be. If our family's not, then that's when some of the issues come up. So I think that's, that's how I define success.
Raul Lopez:Nice, definitely, bro. And yeah, I mean the the whole. We got to run before you become a. You know, got to do a couple of miles before you do a marathon. I mean I tell that all the time, you know, the little, little progressive steps are going to be progress in big steps later. So uh, but thank you, thank you so much, you know. Thank you for being here on the podcast today. Is there a website or something you want to talk about for your book or anything like that?
Rafael Martinez:Yeah, I'll go ahead and share with you the link for the book. Where folks could access the book, again, it's through the University of Arizona Press. You could order a pre-order book now. It'll be available on hardcover or paperback as well as ebook, but I'll put the book. That will lead to folks being able to purchase the book as well. And again, it's called the Legalized Undocumented Youth Movements in the United States, nice.
Raul Lopez:Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time and everybody else out there. Don't forget to cop that mixtape when it comes out in October. Yeah, heck, yeah.
Rafael Martinez:No, I, literally I'm going to walk up on stage with with intro song.
Raul Lopez:You should have like the, the cover on like a record and come out like with your headphones on.
Rafael Martinez:There you go. Parental advisory.
Raul Lopez:Yeah exactly. That's awesome, man. Well, well, thank you so much and I you know I'm looking forward to everything for you in the future. Brother, take care.
Rafael Martinez:No, thank you for the invite.
Raul Lopez:Appreciate it and for everyone else. Once again, thank you so much for joining me. I hope we all continue to learn how to taste existence bangles.
